Is withholding health insurance murder?

[bluethread]

The left is seriously making the argument that if the Republican health insurance proposal is enacted into law, then "people will die". Will those people live forever, if the Republican proposal is not enacted into law? Also, is the Republican plan really withholding health insurance, or just adjusting how it is covered?

[Divine Insight]

The republicans don't have a "Health Care Bill". What they have is a bill designed to repeal the Affordable Health Care Act and give the money to rich.

Whatever "Heath system" they end up with after that will be unaffordable for most Americans including the middle class. And yes, people will die much earlier in their lives because of their inability to access affordable health care?

Is that "murder"? Clearly that's a subjective judgement call. One thing I would say for certain is that it's neither moral nor humane.

And what's the point to this? Why are the republicans so anxious to destroy the Affordable Care Act? Just because Obama supported it? Do they hate Obama that much that they are willing to take it out on millions of Americans?

How is their proposed "Health Care Bill" going to help Americans?

Can you answer me that one question?

[bluethread]

The republicans don't have a "Health Care Bill". What they have is a bill designed to repeal the Affordable Health Care Act and give the money to rich.

I didn't say it was a healthcare bill. Like Obamacare, it is not a healthcare bill, it is a health insurance bill. Obamacare, mandates the transfer of wealth from the middle class to either the health insurance companies or to the government.

Whatever "Heath system" they end up with after that will be unaffordable for most Americans including the middle class. And yes, people will die much earlier in their lives because of their inability to access affordable health care?

That is not their argument. They are simply saying that people will die. Nowhere have I heard the word "earlier" used. I presume that is because it ruins the sound bite and requires them to justify that point. Admittedly some people will die earlier if it passes, but people will die earlier if it doesn't pass also. The actual numbers either way are total speculation.

Is that "murder"? Clearly that's a subjective judgement call. One thing I would say for certain is that it's neither moral nor humane.

As has been made clear in other threads, murder is not subjective. It is clearly defined as intentional unlawful killing. I do not think it is the intent of the Republicans to kill people and if their proposal becomes law, any deaths that occur due to lack of funding would not be unlawful. By the way, mandated emergency services are not suspended by the proposal.

And what's the point to this? Why are the republicans so anxious to destroy the Affordable Care Act? Just because Obama supported it? Do they hate Obama that much that they are willing to take it out on millions of Americans?

It has nothing to do with Obama. It is imploding of it's own weight as we speak. If nothing is done soon, it will have succeeded in collapsing the health insurance industry.

How is their proposed "Health Care Bill" going to help Americans?

Can you answer me that one question?

Well, it will help me by taking away the personal mandate. I value my freedom and believe that requiring me to buy a product or service is tyranny.

[Divine Insight]

It has nothing to do with Obama. It is imploding of it's own weight as we speak. If nothing is done soon, it will have succeeded in collapsing the health insurance industry.

And that is a speculative claim made by republicans.

Well, it will help me by taking away the personal mandate. I value my freedom and believe that requiring me to buy a product or service is tyranny.

That's how I feel about car insurance.

Yet it's mandatory in my state that I purchase car insurance whether I want it or not. I'm 68 years old, I've been driving since I was 16. And in all those years I have never had an accident where I would need insurance. There were three times when someone rammed into me from behind whilst I was sitting at a red light. In every case they totaled their car but did nothing more than put a minor dent in the rear bumper of my truck. And I didn't even ask them to pay for the damage.

Yet I have been paying car insurance premiums for some 5 decades now. That's a lot of money. And I've been paying for other people to have accidents.

No one seems to complain about mandatory car insurance. So why are they so up on arms about mandatory health insurance?

Also, if the republicans are so dead set against mandatory insurance then why aren't they working to repeal the mandatory car insurance?

Personally I think they speak with forked tongue.

If it make sense to force everyone to buy car insurance then why shouldn't it also make sense to force everyone to buy health insurance?

Do the republicans want to do away with government altogether and just revert back to uncivilized times where it's every man for himself?

Civilizations tend to work better when the people who make up the civilization all contribute to the whole. Why are republicans against contributing to the whole of humanity? If republicans are so dead set against government then why are there so many republicans serving in governmental positions?

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 4 by Divine Insight]

i dont like mandatory car insurance, when I was just out of college and trying to find work during the recession it was a huge burden to also have to carry car insurance especially given that I drove safe and dont cause accidents. Like you I have yet to make an insurance claim on my car. Mandatory car insurance imho is a transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich.

same with Obamacare, have you actually seen the plans that insure people $900 a month for a $6000 deductible before any coverage actually takes place. Sure there are waivers for people who make less than $47000, heaven forbid u make $50,000. thats a lot of cash money flowing upwards. An invisible tax. I am not saying the repeal will make things better but Obamacare aint all its cracked up to be.

[Divine Insight]

Mandatory car insurance imho is a transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich.

Why would you think that? What would a person's financial status have anything to do with how dangerous they might be driving a car?

Mandatory car insurance is actually a transfer of wealth from responsible drivers to irresponsible drivers. Not to say that there are never any "truly accidental accidents", but in reality most accidents are caused by driver error, or failure to pay attention and anticipate dangerous situations.

So when it comes to car insurance I feel like I'm being made to pay for irresponsible drivers.

same with Obamacare, have you actually seen the plans that insure people $900 a month for a $6000 deductible before any coverage actually takes place. Sure there are waivers for people who make less than $47000, heaven forbid u make $50,000. thats a lot of cash money flowing upwards. An invisible tax. I am not saying the repeal will make things better but Obamacare aint all its cracked up to be.

Actually it's not "Obamacare", it's the "Affordable Care Act". Calling it Obamacare only serves to fire up those who hate Obama and would just like to destroy anything associated with him. In fact, I think it should be clear that Donald Trump hates Obama to the core and is actually doing many of the things he does just to spite Obama. He's not thinking about what's good for Americans, all he wants to do is hate on Obama. So he just wants to repeal "Obamacare" just to repeal it. He doesn't really give a rat's posterior what it might be replaced with, which in the current bill is basically nothing.

This current bill doesn't "replace" the Affordable Care Act with a better health insurance system. Instead it just repeals it, takes all the money saved and gives it to the rich, and doesn't replace it with anything. That's what in the current Republican "Health Care Bill". Basically NOTHING. Including no money. This is why it's not even a "Health Care Bill".

But health insurance is different from car insurance to be sure. People often can be held responsible for their health problems. Obviously poor diet, drug abused, etc, do come into play, but for the most part people aren't responsible for contracting cancer, etc.

If paying mandatory health insurance will insure that everyone can afford health care, then I'm far more in favor of that, then mandatory car insurance. At least by paying mandatory health insurance I'm helping other people who need health care.

When I pay mandatory car insurance all I feel like I'm doing is paying for irresponsible drivers!

So I would rather pay mandatory health insurance.

That would actually make more sense.

[bluethread]

It has nothing to do with Obama. It is imploding of it's own weight as we speak. If nothing is done soon, it will have succeeded in collapsing the health insurance industry.

And that is a speculative claim made by republicans.

Yes, that is what you asked for.

Well, it will help me by taking away the personal mandate. I value my freedom and believe that requiring me to buy a product or service is tyranny.

That's how I feel about car insurance.

.......

No one seems to complain about mandatory car insurance. So why are they so up on arms about mandatory health insurance?

People complain about it all of the time. However, we are not talking about complaining, we are talking about being forced to purchase a product or service. One is not forced to buy car insurance in the same way as one is being forced to buy health insurance. One relates to a voluntary act, driving. The other relates to an involuntary act, living. Also, one does not have to have insurance to drive. One has to have insurance to drive on public property. Obamacare requires everyone to buy insurance to live.

Do the republicans want to do away with government altogether and just revert back to uncivilized times where it's every man for himself?

Argument by extension anyone? We are not discussing the total abolishment of government. The question is whether withholding health insurance constitutes murder.

Civilizations tend to work better when the people who make up the civilization all contribute to the whole. Why are republicans against contributing to the whole of humanity? If republicans are so dead set against government then why are there so many republicans serving in governmental positions?

That is a socialist red herring. Republicans are not opposed to all government. Currently the republicans are discussing among themselves how much the Federal government should be involved in health insurance. Some want more involvement and some want less. What they are all opposed to is a Federal government mandate requiring the purchase of health insurance. Does that constitute murder?

[tam]

Why don't you guys quit the mandatory insurance programs and instead try to institute free or universal health care, which can then be supplemented with (for the few things not covered) voluntary insurance?


(or keep the programs until such a time as you have free or universal health care instituted; that way no one is going to die or go without health care due to a lack of personal funds, while waiting for the better system to be put in place)


Peace!

[Divine Insight]

Why don't you guys quit the mandatory insurance programs and instead try to institute free or universal health care, which can then be supplemented with (for the few things not covered) voluntary insurance?

I'm all for that. But to the best of my knowledge that's not on the table in congress. I'm just commenting on what the representatives in our government are actually considering. If they were considering free universal health care I'd back that all the way.

Not sure how it works for free though? Seems to me that someone has to pay for something somewhere along the way. Are doctors, hospitals, and medical technicians going to work for FREE?

[tam]

Why don't you guys quit the mandatory insurance programs and instead try to institute free or universal health care, which can then be supplemented with (for the few things not covered) voluntary insurance?

I'm all for that. But to the best of my knowledge that's not on the table in congress. I'm just commenting on what the representatives in our government are actually considering. If they were considering free universal health care I'd back that all the way.

Oh yeah, I understand. Though maybe it should be on the table.

I'm the one who is off-topic.

(I did love your car insurance analogy - of how you are being made to pay for irresponsible drivers (if indeed you drive).)

Not sure how it works for free though? Seems to me that someone has to pay for something somewhere along the way. Are doctors, hospitals, and medical technicians going to work for FREE?

I don't know how countries do it with universal health care; I assume that works sort of the same as free health care. It gets paid for through our taxes (and perhaps some other ways as well... and donations). As far as I see it though (like what actually comes out of my pocket here in Canada), it would be through taxes (and parking fees, lol).


A family member needs injections once a month for something (completely cleared up their condition) that this family member was getting pills for before (which did next to nothing). These injections are $10 000 a shot, and not covered under the normal health care. The insurance plan that covers them (which this family member was granted even with the pre-existing condition) is $120 a month. Pretty awesome.


I have had two c-sections (one was a complication) and two hospital stays (once in a private room because its all that was available, lol, so bonus to me). That is all covered.

Doctors appointments, emergency room visits, etc (and I have two kids so we're definitely using them). All covered. Steroid inflammatory pain killer shot just a couple of weeks ago at the ER due to kidney stones - completely covered. People are in there for pain a lot (migraines or kidney stones or whatever)... all covered.


(Ambulance ride, however: $400. For what is an $8 cab ride. So that sucked, lol, but still...)


So maybe the free health care (from taxes or whatever) keeps down our private health insurance costs, because for a family here, its 100-150 a month, roughly (depending on which package/coverage you choose, which can include vision and dental, mental, etc).


Anyway... I digress and apologize to bluethread for the tangent.




Peace again to you!