Is withholding health insurance murder?

[bluethread]

The left is seriously making the argument that if the Republican health insurance proposal is enacted into law, then "people will die". Will those people live forever, if the Republican proposal is not enacted into law? Also, is the Republican plan really withholding health insurance, or just adjusting how it is covered?

[bluethread]

The Brits stifle consumer choice by replacing the market with government.

You still have the option to go private if NHS doesn't offer what you want.

Not if you are the parent of a 10 month old child. http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/aga ... smsnnews11 It is interesting how the press is saying that baby Charlie is being allowed to die rather than saying he is going to be murdered. Oh, that is right, murder is when government mandated health insurance is withheld, withholding privately funded healthcare is just letting someone die.

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 21 by bluethread]

Euthanasia is a thing in Europe you know. Helping people to kill themselves is acceptable. This case is even less controversial, just limiting the suffering of the baby. It's what is best for the baby.

[McCulloch]

(the single payer health care) It's actually the most unethical, immoral form of healthcare that has led to the deaths of innumerable amounts of people.

[mrow][mcol] Canada [mcol] UK [mcol] USA [row]Life expectancy at birth [col]81.5 [col]81 [col]78.8 [row]Low Birth Weight [col]6.1% [col] 7.0%[col]8.0%[row]estimated years lost to people age 0 to 69 per 100,000 due to death from[row]Diabetes [col] 56.4[col]24.6 [col]107.9 [row]Acute myocardial infarction [col]93.9 [col]100.7 [col]135.3 [row] Cerebriaovascular Disease[col]54.2 [col]82.6 [col]103.8 [row]COPD [col]31.8 [col] 54.7[col]80.3 [row]Genitourinary disease [col] 17.5[col]15.8 [col]52.5 [row]Perinatal death [col]241.4 [col]193.2 [col]249.6 [row]Congenital malformations & Chromosomal Abnormalities [col] 134.5[col]134.9 [col] 142.0 [row]Asthma [col] 4.9[col] 9.6[col] 16.5 [row]Diseases of the blood & blood forming organs [col] 11.1[col] 11.5[col]25.2

In Canada, we have had single payer health since the 1960's. When can we expect these innumerable deaths to start showing up in the statistics?

Obamacare really was just heath insurance reform - when we needed universal health care.

Why would we want to adopt a universal health care system when it has been a complete disaster for every single country that's implemented it?

Really? Statistics say otherwise. No country that has implemented universal healthcare has ever regretted it and gone back. Not one. All of those voters and political leaders fail to notice just how much of a complete disaster it is.

We can't afford to give everyone exactly what they want regarding health care.

No. But you can afford to give almost everybody what they need. Really, you can.

We have given away too much in the past and the people are addicted.

Not really.

The Bible tells me to go work and get mine.

The writers of the Bible says no such thing. One of the writers of the Bible says something about working for your food. But for the sick among you, it says to call the elders, anoint with oil and pray.

Go work for yours -- you will feel better regarding yourself.

I do. I work. I pay taxes. My taxes fund an equitable good quality healthcare system that keeps me and my neighbours provided for. I feel good regarding myself.

One solution to lose of access via governmental triage or inflationary triage would be to focus the law on "informed consent", i.e. individual triage, and otherwise get the government out of healthcare. What think you?

You do realize that individual triage is an oxymoron, don't you?

[JP Cusick]

Not if you are the parent of a 10 month old child. http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/aga ... smsnnews11 It is interesting how the press is saying that baby Charlie is being allowed to die rather than saying he is going to be murdered. Oh, that is right, murder is when government mandated health insurance is withheld, withholding privately funded healthcare is just letting someone die.

Euthanasia is a thing in Europe you know. Helping people to kill themselves is acceptable. This case is even less controversial, just limiting the suffering of the baby. It's what is best for the baby.

People really do need to face up to the realities of death, especially here in the USA.

People (of any age or status) who are dying need to die, and medicine is not to prolong death.

The widespread paranoid view of death and dying is a huge factor in the high cost of medicine and health care, and it is a bottomless pit if we do not stop it.

Obama tried to deal with this through the "death panels" and there is no other option except to create qualified and sensible guidelines for death and dying, overseen by a death panel, so that health care is to be cut off from those who are to die.

That is not being cold or cruel - it is just life.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Not if you are the parent of a 10 month old child. http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/aga ... smsnnews11 It is interesting how the press is saying that baby Charlie is being allowed to die rather than saying he is going to be murdered. Oh, that is right, murder is when government mandated health insurance is withheld, withholding privately funded healthcare is just letting someone die.

Euthanasia is a thing in Europe you know. Helping people to kill themselves is acceptable. This case is even less controversial, just limiting the suffering of the baby. It's what is best for the baby.

People really do need to face up to the realities of death, especially here in the USA.

People (of any age or status) who are dying need to die, and medicine is not to prolong death.

The widespread paranoid view of death and dying is a huge factor in the high cost of medicine and health care, and it is a bottomless pit if we do not stop it.

Obama tried to deal with this through the "death panels" and there is no other option except to create qualified and sensible guidelines for death and dying, overseen by a death panel, so that health care is to be cut off from those who are to die.

That is not being cold or cruel - it is just life.

First of all, there were never any "death panels." That is nothing more than silly anti-Obama anti-Obamacare Republican rhetoric. But I agree that all things die and everyone needs to resign themselves to that inevitability. On the one hand, there are modern medical procedures, or meds, that can be taken which can add years to a person's life. Such steps, when they are possible, should be available to everyone. On the other hand, there are medical procedures which only serve to prolong the imminently inevitable. These sorts of steps should be a decision made by the individual. I have long since concluded, and made it clear to my family, that when the time comes I do not wish to have heroic steps taken for me which only prolongs that which is apparently imminent anyway. But then I have always enjoyed robust good health, and have never actually been face to face with that decision for myself. I absolutely, however, claim for myself the right to self termination when it becomes apparent that all I have left to look forward to is a downward spiral of pain and loss of dignity. And I heavily resent those who would restrict me from making my own determination about how and when I should die based on their ancient superstitious make believe.

[WinePusher]

In Canada, we have had single payer health since the 1960's. When can we expect these innumerable deaths to start showing up in the statistics?

I take it that you aren't even remotely familiar with any of the academic research surrounding healthcare economics?

1) Preventive cancer screenings are more common in the United States than in Canada.
2) Controlling for population, the United States has far more MRI's and Cat Scanners than Canada.
3) The likelihood of detecting and successfully treating cancer is far better in the United States than in Canada.
4) The amount of time it takes for patients to see medical specialists is far less in the United States than in Canada. The amount of time Canadians (and Brits) need to wait for treatment is an abomination and an embarrassment for a first world country.
5) Americans are more likely to be satisfied with their healthcare than Canadians are.
6) The Canadian healthcare system is actually less equitable than the American system.
7) American healthcare is far more accessible and available to citizens than the Canadian system.

http://www.nber.org/aginghealth/fall07/w13429.html

Why would we want to adopt a universal health care system when it has been a complete disaster for every single country that's implemented it?

Really? Statistics say otherwise.

Are you ever going to back up anything you say with evidence? First you make misinformed statements about the minimum wage, and when challenged to provide evidence you just disappear. Now you're saying that the "statistics" back up your misinformed views on healthcare. Well, WHERE IS YOUR SOURCE? Try just this one time to actually back up what you're saying.

No country that has implemented universal healthcare has ever regretted it and gone back. Not one. All of those voters and political leaders fail to notice just how much of a complete disaster it is.

That's really funny cause the ACTUAL STATISTICS and the ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC STUDIES indicate that Americans are far more satisfied with the healthcare they receive than Canadians are.

So as we can see, you're are just making stuff up and none of your claims are actually true.

I do. I work. I pay taxes. My taxes fund an equitable good quality healthcare system that keeps me and my neighbours provided for. I feel good regarding myself.

Wow. So basically, you are incapable of being charitable on your own? You need the government to take your money and do your charity for you? By the way, do you feel good about the horrible wait times your fellow Canadians have to suffer from in your disastrous healthcare system? Do you feel good about the fact that Canada isn't able to efficiently allocate medical resources unlike the US, which has resulted in medical equipment shortages and fewer preventive medical screenings? Do you feel good about the fact that the probability of surviving cancer in Canada is less than what is it in America?

Just wondering, now that you have been presented with actual facts and studies will you reconsider your position on public healthcare? Why would you want to support such a horrible system?

[JP Cusick]

In Canada, we have had single payer health since the 1960's. When can we expect these innumerable deaths to start showing up in the statistics?

I take it that you aren't even remotely familiar with any of the academic research surrounding healthcare economics?

1) Preventive cancer screenings are more common in the United States than in Canada.
2) Controlling for population, the United States has far more MRI's and Cat Scanners than Canada.
3) The likelihood of detecting and successfully treating cancer is far better in the United States than in Canada.
4) The amount of time it takes for patients to see medical specialists is far less in the United States than in Canada. The amount of time Canadians (and Brits) need to wait for treatment is an abomination and an embarrassment for a first world country.
5) Americans are more likely to be satisfied with their healthcare than Canadians are.
6) The Canadian healthcare system is actually less equitable than the American system.
7) American healthcare is far more accessible and available to citizens than the Canadian system.

http://www.nber.org/aginghealth/fall07/w13429.html

The idea is for the USA to learn from every other Country's examples and for us the USA to make a better system.

You are the one dragging your feet based on old ideas.

You demonstrate your own stubbornness when you attack "McCulloch" who is only offering a discussion which American have failed to have.

He is correct.

Are you ever going to back up anything you say with evidence? First you make misinformed statements about the minimum wage, and when challenged to provide evidence you just disappear. Now you're saying that the "statistics" back up your misinformed views on healthcare. Well, WHERE IS YOUR SOURCE? Try just this one time to actually back up what you're saying.

"McCulloch" did give evidence including that chart and that is more than enough evidence for other people who really want to improve the health care in the USA.

You "WP" keep accusing McCulloch when you are the one who keeps trying to stifle any conversation and never offer any solution of your own.

No country that has implemented universal healthcare has ever regretted it and gone back. Not one. All of those voters and political leaders fail to notice just how much of a complete disaster it is.

That's really funny cause the ACTUAL STATISTICS and the ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC STUDIES indicate that Americans are far more satisfied with the healthcare they receive than Canadians are.

It is just that health care is not to be a competition, and the point and purpose of heath care reform is to make it better, and not to compete with your arbitrary and capricious statistics.

America needs a better system - then that is fine - we need to create a better system.

The high cost health care in the USA is not a better system for most of our population.

So as we can see, you're are just making stuff up and none of your claims are actually true.

Honestly that is what he is expected to do - to make up new ideas on how to solve the problem.

My view is that far too many people have no imagination as they can not make up anything new and they are just trapped in the old antiquated ideas with no mental ability to envision a way to improve the health care problems.

The Republican Party can not make up any new solutions - and that is their defect which hurts our entire Country.

Obamacare was not the best solution - but it remains still to be better than nothing.

I do. I work. I pay taxes. My taxes fund an equitable good quality healthcare system that keeps me and my neighbours provided for. I feel good regarding myself.

Wow. So basically, you are incapable of being charitable on your own? You need the government to take your money and do your charity for you? By the way, do you feel good about the horrible wait times your fellow Canadians have to suffer from in your disastrous healthcare system? Do you feel good about the fact that Canada isn't able to efficiently allocate medical resources unlike the US, which has resulted in medical equipment shortages and fewer preventive medical screenings? Do you feel good about the fact that the probability of surviving cancer in Canada is less than what is it in America?

You are misrepresenting what "McCulloch" said, and so that bounces off him and it sticks to your self.

Some of us take this problem very sincerely, and there are reports that many American travel to Canada to get health care which is not available to them in the USA.

Link = AARP ~ Canadian free Health Care, and this 1993 - Americans Filching Free Health Care in Canada

Just wondering, now that you have been presented with actual facts and studies will you reconsider your position on public healthcare? Why would you want to support such a horrible system?

Canada does not have a horrible health care system, and it is insane to paint Canada in that way.

Plus the idea is not for the USA health care to merge with Canada - the idea is that the USA would make up a new improved system for our people.

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 26 by WinePusher]

"Next, the authors examine three other outcome measures: an index of overall health, a depression index, and a pain indicator. Focusing on whites (to sidestep differences in the racial composition of the two populations and the problem of racial disparities in health outcomes), they find that the two countries score similarly on the overall health index and pain indicator..."

That's pretty damning, isn't it? The two countries have similar scores, if we ignore the Blacks and Hispanics.

[JP Cusick]

That's pretty damning, isn't it? The two countries have similar score, if we ignore the Blacks and Hispanics.

My understanding is that the real reason the USA does not have nor want universal health care is because that would be giving the health care to the downtrodden black population. And Hispanics are considered to be black too by the white elite.

The present health care system in the USA does work well for the dominant white population and that is what is meant by not wanting to loose the health care we already have, and for going back to the older system before Obamacare.

Plus the vast majority of black people vote for the Democratic Party and Obamacare was intended to give health care options to the poorest of the population.

[WinePusher]

I take it that you aren't even remotely familiar with any of the academic research surrounding healthcare economics?

1) Preventive cancer screenings are more common in the United States than in Canada.
2) Controlling for population, the United States has far more MRI's and Cat Scanners than Canada.
3) The likelihood of detecting and successfully treating cancer is far better in the United States than in Canada.
4) The amount of time it takes for patients to see medical specialists is far less in the United States than in Canada. The amount of time Canadians (and Brits) need to wait for treatment is an abomination and an embarrassment for a first world country.
5) Americans are more likely to be satisfied with their healthcare than Canadians are.
6) The Canadian healthcare system is actually less equitable than the American system.
7) American healthcare is far more accessible and available to citizens than the Canadian system.

http://www.nber.org/aginghealth/fall07/w13429.html

The idea is for the USA to learn from every other Country's examples and for us the USA to make a better system.

You are the one dragging your feet based on old ideas.

You demonstrate your own stubbornness when you attack "McCulloch" who is only offering a discussion which American have failed to have.

He is correct.

Why would America want to "learn" from Canada's horrible healthcare system? American healthcare is far better than Canadian healthcare, you need to learn about healthcare economics and read the scientific studies to actually gain information about this subject.

"McCulloch" did give evidence including that chart and that is more than enough evidence for other people who really want to improve the health care in the USA.

Uh, he put up a chart that merely indicated the prevalence of various diseases in America, Canada and Britain. Do I really need to explain WHY this isn't relevant?

The fact that Americans are more susceptible to diabetes, for example, is NOT indicative of the quality of American healthcare. Rather, it is an indicator of other things, like general trends of diets in America. Clearly, many Americans lead unhealthy lifestyles which has led to a rise in diseases such as diabetes and heart disease.

But like I said, this is irrelevant when judging the quality and performance of the healthcare system. What DOES matter is, if you are diagnosed with an acute illness, how long does it take to get treatment and how accessible is the medical care? As I've already pointed out, American healthcare is far more accessible and equitable than the Canadian system.

It is just that health care is not to be a competition, and the point and purpose of heath care reform is to make it better, and not to compete with your arbitrary and capricious statistics.

I agree, American healthcare does need significant improvements. Trying to mirror the Canadian or British system would do NOTHING to improve healthcare.

The high cost health care in the USA is not a better system for most of our population.

Didn't I already say this to you? Didn't I already say that the main problem with American healthcare is rising prices? Why are you even responding to my posts if you aren't even going to TRY understand what I'm saying.

So as we can see, you're are just making stuff up and none of your claims are actually true.

Honestly that is what he is expected to do - to make up new ideas on how to solve the problem.

Lol, you're having a hard time trying to defend McCulloch's indefensible post, aren't you?

Canada does not have a horrible health care system, and it is insane to paint Canada in that way.

Of course it does. Read the study. Why did you even bother replying to my post if you can't even honestly respond to what the study says?