Trump vs Freedom!

DanieltheDragon · Post by **DanieltheDragon** » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:36 pm

Finally I must say Trump might do some good. An issue in our current political sphere is the polarization of politics. The Freedom Caucus and the far left represent each pole. The intractability with regards to negotiating and compromise has deeply effected the ability of our government to function by cowtowing to the demands of the minorities of either party.

The failure of the most recent swing at health care is the epitome of this issue. Not even with a majority control in congress and the full support of the White House could the right pass a bill. The Freedom caucus is so ideological that no compromise could be made not even among republicans.

The call to primary them might actually do some good. It might even plant the seeds for dems and republican to work together.

For debate is the ideological extremism represented by the freedom caucus good for the Republican Party?

Is it good for congress?

Is it good for America?

bluethread · Post by **bluethread** » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:41 pm

Well, I don't think that the Freedom Caucus is extreme. Just as the progressives in the Democrat party, it is the more ideologically pure. The left is really good at moving the Overton window. They do not "compromise" for the ideological center, but "compromise" on the speed at which they move their agenda.

The Republicans, at best, have always been the party to attempt to hold the line. The Tea Party called for that to be a hard and fast rule. Since then, the right has finally been able to convince a significant percentage of the public that the "hold the line " strategy is a losing proposition, because when one holds the line one is demonized for not compromising. So, they are now starting with ideological purity, as the progressives do, and then compromising in the direction of their agenda.

What is interesting is that the Progressives do not like the fact that the right has adopted their game plan, yet their refusal to compromise is not characterized as such. Also, not only is the left being given a pass on their return to the "baby killer" tactics of the 60's, the right is called a failure because they do not get everything they want right out of the gate. We are less than 70 days in, there are some 640 days left for this Congress and 1390 days left in this term of the Trump Administration. Remember, it took the Dems over a year to get Obamacare passed, and they had to use the Cornhusker Kickback, et al, and Harry Reid's dirty tricks to do it.

DanieltheDragon · Post by **DanieltheDragon** » Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:10 pm

[Replying to post 2 by bluethread]

I would say the freedom caucus is extreme. This bill was purely conservative and only retained practical components of Obamacare. There was 0 liberal input, if the freedom caucus is so ideologically pure it can't work with the majority of republicans that is an issue. I say this as a more moderate republican, though so I have some bias on the matter.

I don't think it does good to borrow tactics from the dems. While they have had some minor successes with charismatic leaders in Clinton and Obama it has also produced a lot of feckless and spineless failures. For crying out loud there are far more liberal minded folks in the US but they can't maintain a majority in congress for very long at all.

I get it hasn't been 100 days but don't think this health care will be revisited anytime soon. It is caput until after 2018 primaries unless Ryan and Trump abandon the ideologues and work with moderate dems.

bluethread · Post by **bluethread** » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:35 pm

DanieltheDragon wrote: [Replying to post 2 by bluethread]

I get it hasn't been 100 days but don't think this health care will be revisited anytime soon. It is caput until after 2018 primaries unless Ryan and Trump abandon the ideologues and work with moderate dems.

I chalk that up to "Trump can't break 40% in the polls.", "Trump will never be the Republican nominee.", "Trump can not break the "The Blue Wall"", and "Hillary Clinton Will Win Election By A Landslide."

DanieltheDragon · Post by **DanieltheDragon** » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:05 pm

bluethread wrote:
DanieltheDragon wrote: [Replying to post 2 by bluethread]

I get it hasn't been 100 days but don't think this health care will be revisited anytime soon. It is caput until after 2018 primaries unless Ryan and Trump abandon the ideologues and work with moderate dems.
I chalk that up to "Trump can't break 40% in the polls.", "Trump will never be the Republican nominee.", "Trump can not break the "The Blue Wall"", and "Hillary Clinton Will Win Election By A Landslide."

That has nothing to do with why the health care bill failed and why it is not getting revisted. How can you chalk that up to media spin?

The freedom caucus is just doing what it has always done just now it is being targeted at other republicans. It is an uncompromising ideological group. There is no negotiating or deals to be made, not even among conservatives. Trump is just now figuring this out, leaving him in a tough political pickle. How he handles this could possibly define his presidency one way or the other. 2018 will be an interesting year politically well just have to wait and see.

Tired of the Nonsense · Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:59 pm

bluethread wrote:
DanieltheDragon wrote: [Replying to post 2 by bluethread]

I get it hasn't been 100 days but don't think this health care will be revisited anytime soon. It is caput until after 2018 primaries unless Ryan and Trump abandon the ideologues and work with moderate dems.
I chalk that up to "Trump can't break 40% in the polls.", "Trump will never be the Republican nominee.", "Trump can not break the "The Blue Wall"", and "Hillary Clinton Will Win Election By A Landslide."

40% in the polls would represent a significant upturn.

Time.com
President Trump's Approval Ratings Just Hit Another Low
Jennifer Calfas
Updated: 11:26 AM ET | Originally published: Apr 04, 2017
President Donald Trumpâ€™s approval ratings fell to 35% Tuesday â€” another new low for the president during his first months in office.
The approval ratings produced by Quinnipiac University are a drop from the last national poll, released March 22, which showed Trump's approval at 37%. Trumpâ€™s ratings fall under former President Barack Obamaâ€™s lowest â€” 38% in 2013.
According to the poll, the majority of Americans also believe the following about the president:
â€œHe is not honestâ€�
â€œHe does not have good leadership skillsâ€�
â€œHe does not care about average Americansâ€�
â€œHe is not level-headedâ€�
â€œHe does not share their valuesâ€�
Additionally, 52% of voters say they are embarrassed to have Trump as president, according to the poll.
http://time.com/4725494/president-donal ... al-rating/

Joe1950 · Post by **Joe1950** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:51 pm

The Democrats asked the GOP to join them in developing the ACA. The GOP refused.
The Democrats used some of the ideas form the GOP (Heritage Foundation) such as the requirement that everyone get health insurance. The GOP refused to participate.
President Obama started from day one in an attempt to bring the nation together. Mitch McConnell and the GOP said, before Obama even took office: Make Him Fail.

It is utter nonsense to suggest that the Tea Party or "Freedom" Caucus are using Dem tactics. They have been opposed to the very idea that government should work for the people. They are anti-government, any government. They shut down the government when they did not get their way. the Dems are always open to discussion and compromise.

Like petulant children the GOP refuse to do anything to improve the ACA, even though Mr Obama and the Dems have been asking them for the last 6 years to suggest improvements.

The narrative that the Dems and GOP are "the same" is nonsense. the Dems are always trying to make government work, the GOP has, sine the 1980s ,done everything they could to weaken government. Which has the effect of strengthening the grip of corporations on the political system.

DanieltheDragon · Post by **DanieltheDragon** » Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:10 am

[Replying to post 7 by Joe1950]

yes in recent times the GOP has used some tactics that have been detrimentle to a cunctioning government. This has been employed by both parties though it is more of a minority party tactic. That aside we are beginning to see why the GOP did this. It starts and ends with the freedom caucus. they are poisoning the well so tlo speak by making it impossible for moderates to work together.

bluethread · Post by **bluethread** » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:51 pm

DanieltheDragon wrote: [Replying to post 7 by Joe1950]

yes in recent times the GOP has used some tactics that have been detrimentle to a cunctioning government. This has been employed by both parties though it is more of a minority party tactic. That aside we are beginning to see why the GOP did this. It starts and ends with the freedom caucus. they are poisoning the well so tlo speak by making it impossible for moderates to work together.

Thank you for acknowledging that both parties engage in extreme tactics. You are correct that those tactics were generally only used by the minority, specifically when the Democrats were the minority. However, when the Tea Party movement pushed for the Republicans to stop giving in when they are in the minority, The Democrats pulled out all the stops. Regarding "shutting down the government", it is interesting how when the Republicans were blamed for "shutting down the government" even when the Democrats were in charge and Obama ordered the closing of OUTDOOR memorials. Then when the Republicans are in charge and the Democrats dig in their heels, the Republicans are again the one's who are to blame for "shutting down the government". Surprise, surprise, legislating takes time and don't worry, there are going to be plenty of "fixes" to Obamacare. Starting with Medicaid reform.

Joe1950 · Post by **Joe1950** » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:30 pm

bluethread wrote:
DanieltheDragon wrote: [Replying to post 7 by Joe1950]

yes in recent times the GOP has used some tactics that have been detrimentle to a cunctioning government. This has been employed by both parties though it is more of a minority party tactic. That aside we are beginning to see why the GOP did this. It starts and ends with the freedom caucus. they are poisoning the well so tlo speak by making it impossible for moderates to work together.
Thank you for acknowledging that both parties engage in extreme tactics. You are correct that those tactics were generally only used by the minority, specifically when the Democrats were the minority. However, when the Tea Party movement pushed for the Republicans to stop giving in when they are in the minority, The Democrats pulled out all the stops. Regarding "shutting down the government", it is interesting how when the Republicans were blamed for "shutting down the government" even when the Democrats were in charge and Obama ordered the closing of OUTDOOR memorials. Then when the Republicans are in charge and the Democrats dig in their heels, the Republicans are again the one's who are to blame for "shutting down the government". Surprise, surprise, legislating takes time and don't worry, there are going to be plenty of "fixes" to Obamacare. Starting with Medicaid reform.

If you would double check you would find that the GOP was responsible for refusing to fund the government, When that happened it was necessary to shut down some parts of the government, that is true. So Mr Obama had to make a judgement. Do we shut down memorials or the Department of Defense. I think he made the right choice.
By the way, I don't recall the Dems ever saying it was their policy to make any GOP president FAIL. Perhaps you have some evidence for that?
I am glad that, unlike the GOP, you recognize the need to reform the ACA. I agree. If only they had your ability to see things in a practical way.