Second Coming in the Sky?

[liamconnor]

Certain biblical authors talk of Christ returning from the sky: Acts and Paul.

Paul tells Christians that they will be caught up to meet him.


There is an obvious imaginative problem here: even if a figure should appear in the sky, that portion of sky will be visible from only so many miles. The number of people who could fly up to surround such a flying figure can only be so many; twenty, thirty?

At any rate, even during Paul's time people in Ephesus could not possibly see clouds in Thessalonia.


Did Paul believe that Jesus would literally return on clouds and therefore in one particular place in space? Or was Paul less interested in such literal details as he was in theological and apocalyptic precedents? Namely, Daniel's apocalypse, where

"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (Dan 7:13 NAS)

Daniel clearly uses symbolism throughout much of the book.

Do the early Christians use symbolism also when writing of Jesus' return?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]

Jehovah's Witnesses are not bible literalists, we don't take the passage to be literal. In my experience people that believe everything in the bible it to be taken literally get tied up into all kinds of unlikely scenerios.

See below,

JW

[myth-one.com]

Certain biblical authors talk of Christ returning from the sky: Acts and Paul.

Paul tells Christians that they will be caught up to meet him.


There is an obvious imaginative problem here: even if a figure should appear in the sky, that portion of sky will be visible from only so many miles. The number of people who could fly up to surround such a flying figure can only be so many; twenty, thirty?

At any rate, even during Paul's time people in Ephesus could not possibly see clouds in Thessalonia.


Did Paul believe that Jesus would literally return on clouds and therefore in one particular place in space? Or was Paul less interested in such literal details as he was in theological and apocalyptic precedents? Namely, Daniel's apocalypse, where

"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (Dan 7:13 NAS)

Daniel clearly uses symbolism throughout much of the book.

Do the early Christians use symbolism also when writing of Jesus' return?

People won't fly up to meet anyone.

They will be angels at this point.

They will be spirits, not humans.

[marco]

Did Paul believe that Jesus would literally return on clouds and therefore in one particular place in space?

Yes, Paul probably thought Christ would crash upon the scene celestially. We are in danger of exploding Paul into some anachronistic Einstein when he was a singer of songs about a Saviour.

We are given details of Christ's anti-gravitational feat of ascending to nowhere. There is no indication that the narrators thought they were composing a sonnet.

For people of the time Hell is down, heaven is up. End of story.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]

Jehovah's Witnesses are not bible literalists, we don't take the passage to be literal. In my experience people that believe everything in the bible it to be taken literally get tied up into all kinds of unlikely scenerios.

See below,

JW

RESPONSE: Yes. That is also true for major teachings for which Bible enthusists try to justify by appealing to the bible as proof.

As an example, how did belief in Jesus putative virgin birth begin?

[ttruscott]

Certain biblical authors talk of Christ returning from the sky: Acts and Paul.

Paul tells Christians that they will be caught up to meet him.

There is an obvious imaginative problem here: even if a figure should appear in the sky, that portion of sky will be visible from only so many miles. The number of people who could fly up to surround such a flying figure can only be so many; twenty, thirty?

Might not every elect see Him at the same time, wherever in the world they are? And might it not be that in any city of the world only 3 or 4 elect remain?

Nowhere else does the Bible indicate that believers make up the total population of an area in the last days... Just reading the letters to the Churches in The Revelation we see that most were scolded for being full of non-elect 'believers' who used it for a social club....how much more so in the end times? The picture of thousands of people from each city and church rising up is unrealistic given the tenor of the NT exhortations and warnings in the epistles to the Churches. Do modern national/international churches fare any better for purity of faith especially since GOD scattered the Jews by the destruction of their society as a type for the Christian end times?

Assumptions about what the writings of this event might mean are a bit presumptuous, maybe.

[onewithhim]

Certain biblical authors talk of Christ returning from the sky: Acts and Paul.

Paul tells Christians that they will be caught up to meet him.


There is an obvious imaginative problem here: even if a figure should appear in the sky, that portion of sky will be visible from only so many miles. The number of people who could fly up to surround such a flying figure can only be so many; twenty, thirty?

At any rate, even during Paul's time people in Ephesus could not possibly see clouds in Thessalonia.


Did Paul believe that Jesus would literally return on clouds and therefore in one particular place in space? Or was Paul less interested in such literal details as he was in theological and apocalyptic precedents? Namely, Daniel's apocalypse, where

"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (Dan 7:13 NAS)

Daniel clearly uses symbolism throughout much of the book.

Do the early Christians use symbolism also when writing of Jesus' return?

Acts 1:11 tells us that Jesus will "come in the same manner as you have beheld him going into the sky." How was that? He was OBSCURED by the clouds. They couldn't see him any more.

When he returns it will be an event that he negotiates from heaven, therefore invisibly. Nations will "see" him with eyes of understanding. Jesus said that people can look at something but do not really "see" or, understand. "I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do NOT see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." (Matt.13:13, NASB) When he returns people will absolutely "see" that he has come to put an end to all wickedness. They will all understand, though they don't literally see him with their eyes.

Jesus' co-rulers will not be visible to anyone from the ground. When they are called to meet him in the air, they will be invisible, in spirit bodies, as Paul explained in I Corinthians 15: 40,42-53. There is no problem for Jesus to welcome any person from any part of the world.

.

[JP Cusick]

Did Paul believe that Jesus would literally return on clouds and therefore in one particular place in space?

Do the early Christians use symbolism also when writing of Jesus' return?

The Bible constantly uses symbolism and metaphor throughout, and coming in the clouds is just another example.

People take such words literally when they have limited vision.

The word "clouds" in the context represents groups of people, so that Jesus is to return within or attached to that group of people.

I say it is a mistake to view those clouds as being a Church group (or plural groups) because it implies a new formation of a group as like a cloud forms before a storm.

[marco]

Jesus' co-rulers will not be visible to anyone from the ground. When they are called to meet him in the air, they will be invisible, in spirit bodies, as Paul explained in I Corinthians 15: 40,42-53. There is no problem for Jesus to welcome any person from any part of the world.

"Co-rulers" is absurd to a 21st century reader.
"visible to anyone on the ground" is absurd in its context of something appearing out of the blue.
"meet him in the air" is just absurd. A piece of unmitigated nonsense.
"spirit bodies, as Paul explained," - is another absurdity which Paul didn't explain. He talked about different glories of different stars. Paul, remember, is a simple man, not a scientist.

The descent of Christ like his ascension will be a nice poem. Nothing more. We constantly move from literal to figurative when it pleases us.

[JehovahsWitness]

Jesus' co-rulers will not be visible to anyone from the ground. When they are called to meet him in the air, they will be invisible, in spirit bodies, as Paul explained in I Corinthians 15: 40,42-53. There is no problem for Jesus to welcome any person from any part of the world.

"Co-rulers" is absurd to a 21st century reader..

In that you have made a valid and dignified point worthy of continued debate.

Are you implying it is absurd to all 21st readers?

I am a 21st century reader, and the idea it is not absurd to me. I can confidently say that it is also not absurd to at least 8 million others like me. Possibly, since the bible speaks of Jesus ruling with others, it might not be absurd to many more millions of bible believing Christians... in any case I am sure the idea of a coalition of rulers, whatever the terminology ie someone ruling or having authority in association with others is abbsolutely absurd to many others who cannot conceive of such an ludicous idea, on that I will concede.

I'm sure there are those that would happily mock and riducule the millions of Christians that believe co-rulership is possible; and naturally for an atheists, Jesus ruling anywhere with anyone regardless of the word used is totally unbelievable and no doubt worthy of nothing but contempt; Feel free to be of that number if you are of that persuasion.

I completely and publically concede that you would, if that were be your opinion be within the vast majority.


JW