Was Jesus the oldest of seven children?

[polonius]

Mark 6:3New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
3 Is he not the carpenter,[a] the son of Mary, and the brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?� And they took offense at him.

Matthew 13:55-56 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
" Is he not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother named Mary and his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? Are not his sisters all with us? Where did this man get all this?�

Semitic usage, the terms “brother,� “sister� are applied not only to children of the same parents, but to nephews, nieces, cousins, half-brothers, and half-sisters. However, all the Gospels were written in Koine Greek which has a very specific word for brother “adelphous,.�

In the Gospels, the brothers of Jesus are always in the company of Mary and there in no other mother (or father) mentioned., In other cases, both the father and mother are named.

Matthew 1:24-25, Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

[bluethread]

Though your post is has many presumptions that are used as support for your points, I will just address this one of now. What is it said the Miriam traveled alone when she visited her cousin?

Hello....... As far as possible I try to work with the 'balance of probabilities' and more often 'the balance of possibilities'.

But now let's look at your presumption, that Mary left her home in Nazareth, went down to Judea and stayed three months before returning....... with whom, exactly?'

Here it is for your scrutiny....
LUKE {1:39-56)

If you believe this account then that is fine, but I do not find this account to be credible.....

That does not address the question. There are many possibilities. Yoseph could have accompanied her on one or both of the trips, Yoseph on one and Zechariah the other, some other mutual friend. This is a totally believable account. The fact that it does not explain the travel details does not really effect it's credibility. After all, the trip is not the important part of the passage.

[oldbadger]

That does not address the question. There are many possibilities. Yoseph could have accompanied her on one or both of the trips, Yoseph on one and Zechariah the other, some other mutual friend. This is a totally believable account. The fact that it does not explain the travel details does not really effect it's credibility. After all, the trip is not the important part of the passage.

I believe that I answered the question directly.
I sometimes do feel the need to read between the lines and guess how a situation or incident happened. And I guess that when kit conflicts with your belief you might call me presumptuous.

And now it's my turn to suggest that a narrative that excludes any company at all suddenly has young pregnant Mary surrounded.....

No..... Josef BarJacob does not get any mention at any point, and, by the way, if he had accompanied Mary one way, then surely he would have accompanied her on the return journey..... just sayin'....

What do you mean by, the trips are not important? They might not be important to some Christians, but every part of the pericope is important to historical investigation surely?

By the way........... Luke points out very clearly that John the Immerser is a blood relative of Yeshua, yes? But John knows nothing about Yeshua (as a relative) at their first meeting? And John needs to send disciples to find out more about Yeshua? And why does neither refer to the other as relative, or family, or cousin?

The more an objective eye looks into Luke, the more troubles one finds, in my opinion.

[bluethread]

That does not address the question. There are many possibilities. Yoseph could have accompanied her on one or both of the trips, Yoseph on one and Zechariah the other, some other mutual friend. This is a totally believable account. The fact that it does not explain the travel details does not really effect it's credibility. After all, the trip is not the important part of the passage.

I believe that I answered the question directly.
I sometimes do feel the need to read between the lines and guess how a situation or incident happened. And I guess that when kit conflicts with your belief you might call me presumptuous.

And now it's my turn to suggest that a narrative that excludes any company at all suddenly has young pregnant Mary surrounded.....

No..... Josef BarJacob does not get any mention at any point, and, by the way, if he had accompanied Mary one way, then surely he would have accompanied her on the return journey..... just sayin'....

Yes, you are just saying. She is among family and the home of a Cohen at that. I think that Yoseph could have trusted her in their care. He could have went home and come back three months later. Also, as I stated, she could have returned with Zechariah, Elizabeth's husband. There are any number for safe travel arrangements that could have occurred.

What do you mean by, the trips are not important? They might not be important to some Christians, but every part of the pericope is important to historical investigation surely?

It may have importance in setting the historical context, but it is secondary to the purpose of the trip and the events that occurred in her meeting with Elizabeth.

By the way........... Luke points out very clearly that John the Immerser is a blood relative of Yeshua, yes? But John knows nothing about Yeshua (as a relative) at their first meeting? And John needs to send disciples to find out more about Yeshua? And why does neither refer to the other as relative, or family, or cousin?

Yeshua was indeed Yochannan's cousin, and Yochannan does appear to know Yeshua when Yeshua comes to receive a mikvah. In fact, Yochannan's reaction at Yeshua's mikvah is not even mentioned, in Luke's account. Though Yochannan BenZevedee does record Yochannan saying that he did not know that Yeshua was HaMeshiach before the mikvah, Yochannan clearly had a different opinion when Yeshua arrived for the mikvah. Some time later, Yochannan does have doubts and sends his disciples to ask Yeshua for reassurance the He was HaMeshiach. However, this series of events appears to speak more to a family relationship, than a lack thereof. All, of that said, I am not sure a close relationship between Yeshua and Yochannan needs to be established to make Luke's record of Myriam's visit with Elizabeth reasonable.

[oldbadger]

Yes, you are just saying. She is among family and the home of a Cohen at that. I think that Yoseph could have trusted her in their care. He could have went home and come back three months later.

If you believe that Yosef BarJacob was quite happy to leave Miriam BartaHeli to travel through Galilee, Decapolis and Judea alone, then that's up to you.

Also, as I stated, she could have returned with Zechariah, Elizabeth's husband. There are any number for safe travel arrangements that could have occurred.

Fascinating. Quite absolutely jaw dropping.....
So Zechariah who carried out routine Levite duties in the Temple such as incense burning, could just leave and go to Galilee?
Zechariah who was 'LUKE: {1:7} well stricken in years'...... but able to leave his ancient pregnanty wife for a long trip?

Are you happy to consider the above as a possibility, yet refute my proposals?

It may have importance in setting the historical context, but it is secondary to the purpose of the trip and the events that occurred in her meeting with Elizabeth.

If the historical research shatters the record into fable, then the rest can be discarded. I believe in the lives of Yeshua and Johannan bjut I cannot believe in this...

Yeshua was indeed Yochannan's cousin, and Yochannan does appear to know Yeshua when Yeshua comes to receive a mikvah. In fact, Yochannan's reaction at Yeshua's mikvah is not even mentioned, in Luke's account. Though Yochannan BenZevedee does record Yochannan saying that he did not know that Yeshua was HaMeshiach before the mikvah, Yochannan clearly had a different opinion when Yeshua arrived for the mikvah.

No....... I find it strange that these two went unaquainted for up to 27 - 30 years and then.... relatives! They didn't even hang arouind together after their meeting. Yeshua moved further along the river with his disciples I seem to remember.
Credibility stretched as far as it could go.... to breaking poiint, imo.

Yochannan BenZevedee does record......

By any chance, are you trying to refer to John son of Zebedee?
If so, you've misplaced this Genessarret boatman by quite a long way. Galileans did not speak Western Aramaic, and their language for 'Son of' was not 'Ben', but 'Bar'. They didn't speak in Hebrew dialect, a point mentioned in the bible.
I think you mean Jochannan BarZebedee don't you?

Some time later, Yochannan does have doubts and sends his disciples to ask Yeshua for reassurance the He was HaMeshiach. However, this series of events appears to speak more to a family relationship, than a lack thereof. All, of that said, I am not sure a close relationship between Yeshua and Yochannan needs to be established to make Luke's record of Myriam's visit with Elizabeth reasonable.

Doubts??! He heard that Yeshua was a wine bibber, and more. And of course the rumours were true...... G-John makes great noise about how Yeshua, at a wedding on a nearby hilltop community Cana actually uses his powers to make more of the stuff. I personally think that Yeshua eating and drinking with his friends, the tough and hard Genessarret officials and boatmen, is just great.

But your post shows that Yosef could have been utterly careless of his recent bride.
That it was reasonable for Zechariah an ancient man to leave his pregnant (or just birthed) ancient wife and go away!!
And your proposal that peasants from Galilee could be relatives of Temple servant Levites from Judea is strange to me.

[JehovahsWitness]

If you believe that Yosef BarJacob was quite happy to leave Miriam BartaHeli to travel through Galilee, Decapolis and Judea alone, then that's up to you.

The bible does not state she travelled "alone". Joseph evidently didn't visit Elizabeth with her, but why do you assume she didn't travel down with friends or relatives. She could well have done so, since it was in the direction of the temple and there would be numerous occassions for individuals to travel to Judea. It is indeed most unlikely she would have literally done the journey which would have taken at least three or four days alone and we can only speculate as to who she travelled with, but you are speaking as if you know for sure she was on the road alone.

All we know for sure is that she visited with Elizabeth, whether she was there with other relatives or whether she alone visited Elizabeth but she did the route with others we just don't know. When filling in the gaps with our imagination, it is more logical to fill them with the most reasonable conclusion, which is not that the trip was imposssible (because it wasn't) but that she made arrangements to travel in safety.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

I find it strange that these two went unaquainted for up to 27 - 30 years

What verse are you refering to? How do you know this?

[oldbadger]

I find it strange that these two went unaquainted for up to 27 - 30 years

What verse are you referring to? How do you know this?

Are you proposing that these two men had intimate knowledge of each other, and visited each other before their meeting at Jordan?

Yeshiva was told about the Immerser by Andrew and possibly Philip, I seem to remember.

As already said, if you want to believe in these particular details then that is your privilege. But I find these details to be highly suspect.

[oldbadger]

If you believe that Yosef BarJacob was quite happy to leave Miriam BartaHeli to travel through Galilee, Decapolis and Judea alone, then that's up to you.

The bible does not state she travelled "alone". Joseph evidently didn't visit Elizabeth with her, but why do you assume she didn't travel down with friends or relatives. She could well have done so, since it was in the direction of the temple and there would be numerous occassions for individuals to travel to Judea. It is indeed most unlikely she would have literally done the journey which would have taken at least three or four days alone and we can only speculate as to who she travelled with, but you are speaking as if you know for sure she was on the road alone.

All we know for sure is that she visited with Elizabeth, whether she was there with other relatives or whether she alone visited Elizabeth but she did the route with others we just don't know. When filling in the gaps with our imagination, it is more logical to fill them with the most reasonable conclusion, which is not that the trip was imposssible (because it wasn't) but that she made arrangements to travel in safety.

JW

If you look at the report you will see many intimate details in the story, but Luke omits to tell us who Miriam travelled with, or retirn with. I am interested as to how Luke gathered these fine detailed stories 70 - 80 years after the events....
I would love to know how Luke acquired the geneological records of Mary, a Galilean peasant's wife.

As said already.... If you believe this then that is up to you. I don't believe Luke's account of the early years.

[JehovahsWitness]

Luke omits to tell us who Miriam travelled with, or retirn with.

Yes, so again, my question is given the above how do you know Mary traveled alone?

[JehovahsWitness]

I find it strange that these two went unaquainted for up to 27 - 30 years

What verse are you referring to? How do you know this?

Are you proposing that these two men had intimate knowledge of each other, and visited each other before their meeting at Jordan?.

I'm not proposing anything I'm asking YOU a question: how do you know this? Will you answer my question or not?