Was Jesus the oldest of seven children?

[polonius]

Mark 6:3New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
3 Is he not the carpenter,[a] the son of Mary, and the brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?� And they took offense at him.

Matthew 13:55-56 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
" Is he not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother named Mary and his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? Are not his sisters all with us? Where did this man get all this?�

Semitic usage, the terms “brother,� “sister� are applied not only to children of the same parents, but to nephews, nieces, cousins, half-brothers, and half-sisters. However, all the Gospels were written in Koine Greek which has a very specific word for brother “adelphous,.�

In the Gospels, the brothers of Jesus are always in the company of Mary and there in no other mother (or father) mentioned., In other cases, both the father and mother are named.

Matthew 1:24-25, Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

[oldbadger]

Luke omits to tell us who Miriam travelled with, or retirn with.

Yes, so again, my question is given the above how do you know Mary traveled alone?

Excuse me, but you returned to the conversation to challenge me.
You need to tell me how you can presume that Miriam travelled in company when the bible mentions no such thing. Luke's account shows Miriam rising up, and off, into the hill country, down to Juda.........

....... all very odd.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 41 by oldbadger]

So can I take it you refuse to answer my question?

[oldbadger]

I find it strange that these two went unaquainted for up to 27 - 30 years

What verse are you referring to? How do you know this?

Are you proposing that these two men had intimate knowledge of each other, and visited each other before their meeting at Jordan?.

I'm not proposing anything I'm asking YOU a question: how do you know this? Will you answer my question or not?

Yes..... but YOU are unable to show that these two persons ever knew of each other.

How is it that Cephas never mentioned anything about Yeshua's relationship, and if G-Mark truly is about Cephas's memoirs then I would have expected Mark to at least make mention of this quite amazing fact.

I think that the onus would be upon you to show how a Galilean Peasant of the 2nd order could IN ANY WAY be related to a Judean Levite in the Upper class.

Amazing...... No........

[JehovahsWitness]

Will you answer my question...?

Yes..

Okay well go ahead then, answer it then.


JW





(when I ask you to answer the question I mean type it out in English in a post, not answer it in your head, where I cannot see it).

[oldbadger]

[Replying to post 41 by oldbadger]

So can I take it you refuse to answer my question?

I think that Miriam travelled (in this story) as Luke wrote that she travelled......... I don't think that I have to produce any evidence to the contrary........ I simply have been enjoying yours and other member's ideas about this.
One member has proposed that ancient Zacharius left his ancient 6 months pregnant wife to escort Miriam home, which I think is extremely weak. That would have been a most careless and foolhardy action.
You have proposed that relatives, friends or persons unknown accompanied pregnant Mary (Miriam) down to Judea for a three months stay, away from her spouse....!! .......but Luke, who wanted to be so precise about everything didn't mention these other folks.

My answer to your question is that all that need be done by me is to show this particular story to any group of detached people, together with all offered suggestions, and then ask them for a 'cred' score of between 1 & 10....... Job done....? You see, I'm not trying to convince you....... I'm simply showing the evidence to others....

------------

Luke's whole nativity story, which differs so far from Matthew's, with his most strange geneology/identifications which differ so much from his own technique of identifying, say, Anna.......... with his almost urgent need to tie the Immerser and Yeshua more closely together........ If it looks wrong, then it probably is wrong.
Just how would you fit the escape to Egypt into Luke's account?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 41 by oldbadger]

So can I take it you refuse to answer my question?

I think that Miriam travelled (in this story) as Luke wrote that she travelled...

That doesn't answer my question, my question was how do you KNOW she travelled alone. Luke only said she travelled so where do you get that information that she was alone?

[bluethread]

Yes, you are just saying. She is among family and the home of a Cohen at that. I think that Yoseph could have trusted her in their care. He could have went home and come back three months later.

If you believe that Yosef BarJacob was quite happy to leave Miriam BartaHeli to travel through Galilee, Decapolis and Judea alone, then that's up to you.

There is no reason to believe that he did not go with her. Also, there is no need to mention that, since the point of the passage is the interaction between two pregnant cousins.

Also, as I stated, she could have returned with Zechariah, Elizabeth's husband. There are any number for safe travel arrangements that could have occurred.

Fascinating. Quite absolutely jaw dropping.....
So Zechariah who carried out routine Levite duties in the Temple such as incense burning, could just leave and go to Galilee?
Zechariah who was 'LUKE: {1:7} well stricken in years'...... but able to leave his ancient pregnanty wife for a long trip?

He had to travel to the Temple when it was His time to serve. Also, "stricken" is the KJV translation designed to focus on the difficulty in having children. The Greek term simple means to proceed. Yes, Zechariah was advanced in years, but that does not mean that he could not have accompanied Myriam on the return trip. By the way that probably meant that he was in his forties, since Cohens retired at 50. Anyway, as I stated, that is one of many possibilities.

It may have importance in setting the historical context, but it is secondary to the purpose of the trip and the events that occurred in her meeting with Elizabeth.

If the historical research shatters the record into fable, then the rest can be discarded. I believe in the lives of Yeshua and Johannan bjut I cannot believe in this...

Who says that it "shatters the record into fable". No historical record is complete. Many details are left out by historians, because they are not relevant to what the historian considers to be significant.

Yeshua was indeed Yochannan's cousin, and Yochannan does appear to know Yeshua when Yeshua comes to receive a mikvah. In fact, Yochannan's reaction at Yeshua's mikvah is not even mentioned, in Luke's account. Though Yochannan BenZevedee does record Yochannan saying that he did not know that Yeshua was HaMeshiach before the mikvah, Yochannan clearly had a different opinion when Yeshua arrived for the mikvah.

No....... I find it strange that these two went unaquainted for up to 27 - 30 years and then.... relatives! They didn't even hang arouind together after their meeting. Yeshua moved further along the river with his disciples I seem to remember.
Credibility stretched as far as it could go.... to breaking poiint, imo

.

Who is arguing for that? Clearly not Luke. As I stated before, historians do not record every detail. Luke clearly did not consider any interaction between Yeshua and Yochannan prior to the mikvah to be significant. You have made a big deal about how improbable you believe it to be that Myriam would travel to see her first cousin, when they have the incentive of a significant life experience, i.e. pregnancy. Yet, you insist that there must have been significant interaction between there children. If they would not travel to have a traditional hen party when they both had rather miraculous pregnancies, why would they travel later for a playdate. Come on, at least be consistent.

Yochannan BenZevedee does record......

By any chance, are you trying to refer to John son of Zebedee?
If so, you've misplaced this Genessarret boatman by quite a long way. Galileans did not speak Western Aramaic, and their language for 'Son of' was not 'Ben', but 'Bar'. They didn't speak in Hebrew dialect, a point mentioned in the bible.
I think you mean Jochannan BarZebedee don't you?

David H. Stern believes it was probably Ben-Zavdai, but again this is a digression. I was referring to the writer of one of the other four accounts in the RCC cannon, and I think you know that.

Some time later, Yochannan does have doubts and sends his disciples to ask Yeshua for reassurance the He was HaMeshiach. However, this series of events appears to speak more to a family relationship, than a lack thereof. All, of that said, I am not sure a close relationship between Yeshua and Yochannan needs to be established to make Luke's record of Myriam's visit with Elizabeth reasonable.

Doubts??! He heard that Yeshua was a wine bibber, and more. And of course the rumours were true...... G-John makes great noise about how Yeshua, at a wedding on a nearby hilltop community Cana actually uses his powers to make more of the stuff. I personally think that Yeshua eating and drinking with his friends, the tough and hard Genessarret officials and boatmen, is just great.

In spite of my best efforts to differentiate, it appears that you are confusing, or think I am confusing, Yochannan Ben-Zavdai with Yeshua's cousin. We can discuss Yeshua's drinking habits as recorded by Yochannan Ben-Zavdai at some other time. Right now we are discussing the feasibility of Myriam's visit to the mother of Yeshua's cousin Yochannan.

But your post shows that Yosef could have been utterly careless of his recent bride.
That it was reasonable for Zechariah an ancient man to leave his pregnant (or just birthed) ancient wife and go away!!
And your proposal that peasants from Galilee could be relatives of Temple servant Levites from Judea is strange to me.

Again, that is just one of many possibilities, that you choose to present in the worst possible light. Would you like to discuss whether Myriam was spotting or Zechariah was missing a leg, while we are speculating on irrelevant details? Regarding significant details, it is clear that Zechariah , Elizabeth's husband, was a Cohen, because it is recorded that He was chosen to burn incense in the Holy Place.

[oldbadger]

Badger,
................... Do you know that every male was to travel to the temple at least three times a year .....................................................?
JW

Luke {2:40} And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. {2:41} Now his parents went to Jerusalem
every year at the feast of the passover. {2:42} And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.

Now....... Did Joseph go to one Great Feast each year, or to all three?
Now..... Is it that Luke just did not mention Joseph's attendance at the other two and Joseph attended all three, or did Joseph just attend one Feast like most working class Galilean peasants?

Don't ask me to prove a thing......... you just need to decide for yourself.

[oldbadger]

[Replying to post 41 by oldbadger]

So can I take it you refuse to answer my question?

I think that Miriam travelled (in this story) as Luke wrote that she travelled...

That doesn't answer my question, my question was how do you KNOW she travelled alone. Luke only said she travelled so where do you get that information that she was alone?

You just don't get it.........
It's time to turn this around upon you........
How do you KNOW that Miriam was accompanied, when Luke mentioned no such thing?

It's just like my previous post to you, showing where Luke reported that Joseph went to Passover each year, with no mention of attendance at the other two feasts. I don't THINK Joseph went to three feasts........

Luke's entire 'early years' account is highly suspect, and it's not about what I KNOW, it's about my honest suspicions....... I simply don'ty believe his account.....

I think it's time to include Matthew's account in all this........... let's see you connect all the nativity dots together from not just one account, but two.

[oldbadger]

There is no reason to believe that he did not go with her. Also, there is no need to mention that, since the point of the passage is the interaction between two pregnant cousins.

No..... the point iof thre passage was to ensure that readers would see that the Immerser as the introduction to Jesus Christ. I have no reason to believe that they even knew each other before introduction at Jordan. The Immerser was his own person, with his own mission, and Jesus agreed with it and picked it up.

I will look forward to any future time when you might tell me that because a 'thing' was not wtritten down it cannot be assumed! Remember? You mentioned about how much I presume? That's what you are doing.

Also, as I stated, she could have returned with Zechariah, Elizabeth's husband. There are any number for safe travel arrangements that could have occurred.

Oh.... please.
Luke {1:7} And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were [now] well stricken in years.

...... so 'weel stricken in years' = 40?
How far do you want to stretch all this?
And you need to remember that Zacharia was dumb, not ideal for a guide.

I must answer the rest later....