Salvation loss. Is it possible?

[Mick]

I believe it is possible for a heaven bound Christian to end up condemned. There are many passages describing this but I believe the parable in Luke 12:42-46 is one of the clearest.

In this parable, the word "manager" is singular, showing that there is only one faithful and wise manager being spoken of. Looking at the verses, we have:

a) V.42 tells us of a faithful and wise manager (obviously a saved man) who is put in charge while the master (Jesus) is away.

b) Vs. 43-44 say that the servant will be rewarded and put in charge of all the master's possessions if the master returns and finds that the servant has remained faithful.

c) Vs. 45-46 then tells us that the same servant will be condemned and assigned a place with the unbelievers (in hell) if the master returns and finds that he is sinning and mistreating the other servants etc.

To say that the servant will be assigned a place with unbelievers makes it obvious that he was a believer initially.

To me, this is one of several parables and passages which clearly show that a Christian can be rewarded or condemned, depending on his actions.

Loss of salvation is a vitally important issue.

What do you think of this parable?

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[Replying to Mick]

I believe it is possible for a heaven bound Christian to end up condemned. There are many passages describing this but I believe the parable in Luke 12:42-46 is one of the clearest.

In this parable, the word "manager" is singular, showing that there is only one faithful and wise manager being spoken of. Looking at the verses, we have:

a) V.42 tells us of a faithful and wise manager (obviously a saved man) who is put in charge while the master (Jesus) is away.

b) Vs. 43-44 say that the servant will be rewarded and put in charge of all the master's possessions if the master returns and finds that the servant has remained faithful.

c) Vs. 45-46 then tells us that the same servant will be condemned and assigned a place with the unbelievers (in hell) if the master returns and finds that he is sinning and mistreating the other servants etc.

To say that the servant will be assigned a place with unbelievers makes it obvious that he was a believer initially.

To me, this is one of several parables and passages which clearly show that a Christian can be rewarded or condemned, depending on his actions.

Loss of salvation is a vitally important issue.

What do you think of this parable?

I agree with you concerning that parable. It clearly proves our salvation is not guaranteed unless we remain faithful.

That point is found throughout the Bible: Ezekiel 18:24  “But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.� (KJV)

Hebrews 10:36-39 “For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.� (KJV)

[Mick]

[Replying to BusB]

I agree with you concerning that parable. It clearly proves our salvation is not guaranteed unless we remain faithful.

Amen Bus B. Ezekiel 18:24 and Hebrews 10:36-39 also make it abundantly clear that salvation can be lost.

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[Replying to BusB]

I agree with you concerning that parable. It clearly proves our salvation is not guaranteed unless we remain faithful.

Amen Bus B. Ezekiel 18:24 and Hebrews 10:36-39 also make it abundantly clear that salvation can be lost.

Yes, indeed salvation can be lost.

Jesus' words at John 10:28-29 have been misunderstood to be the primary support for that fallacious belief.

No man can separate us from from the love of Christ but we can allow our love to die and so fall away to our destruction.

[Mick]

[Replying to BusB]

Jesus' words at John 10:28-29 have been misunderstood to be the primary support for that fallacious belief.

Yes, these verses are misunderstood. The words "listen" and "follow" are present tense meaning that Jesus' sheep continue to listen and continue to follow Jesus. Sheep that don't do this on a continual basis will wander off and be lost. This is exactly what can happen to Christians.

No man can separate us from from the love of Christ but we can allow our love to die and so fall away to our destruction.

Amen. At the end of Romans 8 it says that nothing can separate us from the love of God and all the items listed are external to our being. God will protect us from those things. However, there is no mention sin which is an internal influence. Sin always separates us from God and can result in condemnation.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 1 by Mick]

I follow Karl Barth on interpreting the parables of Jesus as directed towards the conscience, not the intellect: that is, their purpose was to incite action, not to give theoretical knowledge. If we read them too literally, we will have to say that heaven and hell occupy the same space and can be seen from each other, as in the parable of the rich man and lazarus. Parables predicting 'gnashing and weeping' are intended as warnings against presumption, especially presumptions grounded on one's ethnicity (i.e., Jews).


If we want theoretical knowledge, Paul is the best place to go, and he does not seem to me to think that Christians can lose their salvation.

[Aetixintro]

[Replying to post 1 by Mick]

Let's assume all children are bound for Heaven. Then...

From trial of life,
- heading into perversion and horrors against others set you for Hell.
- still going for credible ethical life and decency set you, as before, for Heaven.

So I think it's definite that people may lose their salvation and in proving extremely perverted will never know anything else than Hell by the explicitly corrupt mind, having nothing else to do than horrors onto others!

IMO.

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[Replying to post 1 by Mick]

I follow Karl Barth on interpreting the parables of Jesus as directed towards the conscience, not the intellect: that is, their purpose was to incite action, not to give theoretical knowledge. If we read them too literally, we will have to say that heaven and hell occupy the same space and can be seen from each other, as in the parable of the rich man and lazarus. Parables predicting 'gnashing and weeping' are intended as warnings against presumption, especially presumptions grounded on one's ethnicity (i.e., Jews).


If we want theoretical knowledge, Paul is the best place to go, and he does not seem to me to think that Christians can lose their salvation.

Then it appears Paul worked hard encouraging the elect of God to put on and keep on that helmet called "the hope of salvation" for no good reason:

1 Thessalonians 5:8  "But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation."

However, many do rationalize away Paul's warning as follows:

Philippians 2:12  "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Paul spoke to the elect of God, telling them: Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip."

Still some, just as you, think that if they are elected of God that they cannot neglect their salvation and lose out on it. Paul, however, disagrees:

Hebrews 2:3  "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him.."

Paul spoke these things to the elect of God:

2 Timothy 2:10  "Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."

But if you feel sure that what you said is right.

[Mick]

[Replying to liamconnor]

I follow Karl Barth on interpreting the parables of Jesus as directed towards the conscience, not the intellect: that is, their purpose was to incite action, not to give theoretical knowledge... If we want theoretical knowledge, Paul is the best place to go, and he does not seem to me to think that Christians can lose their salvation.

Paul actually wrote many things showing that salvation can be lost but I won't state them at this moment as, first, I would like to show that Jesus used parables to teach us. The following is a little long but I can't really shorten it -

Why Jesus spoke in parables -
Parables are spiritual truths expressed in common, natural terms and are as much a part of establishing doctrine as any other part of scripture (If not then Jesus wasted a lot of time telling His disciples nice, spiritually vague stories). As a result of the lack of faith, and hardheartedness of the people, Jesus chose to use parables because they have the double purpose of revealing and concealing - revealing to those with faith and concealing from the hardhearted as the following show:
a) In Mat_13:10-12, Jesus tells us that through the parables the mysteries of the kingdom are revealed.
b) In Mat_13:13-15, He said that parables conceal things from those who are wilfully blind, deaf and hardhearted.
c) In Mat_13:16, regarding the parables, He said, "But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear."
c) In Mat_11:25, He said that things are hidden from the wise and learned and revealed to the little children.
If we consider parables to be of little value, or second class in establishing doctrine, then we being dismissive of the very method Jesus chose to reveal spiritual truths to those who are willing to listen.