Clement quotes the Old Testament when quoting Jesus.

[alwayson]

Clement quotes the Old Testament when quoting Jesus.

Like Paul, Clement had no idea about an Earthly Jesus.

When Clement says, ‘Christ himself calls to us through the Holy Spirit’, and then quotes ‘Christ’ at length, what we find in fact is simply a quotation of the Psalms (1 Clem. 22.1-8, which matches Pss 34.11-17, 19; and 32.10). Thus Clement assumes that Jesus ‘speaks’ to us through the scriptures. Clement didn’t even have to say this. He simply assumes that a quotation of the Old Testament can be described as a quotation of ‘Christ’ without explanation or citation—the fact that the Corinthians don’t need this to be explained to them entails this was routinely understood within the churches of the time: that Jesus speaks through the Old Testament, rather than human tradition.

[Mithrae]

When Clement says, ‘Christ himself calls to us through the Holy Spirit’, and then quotes ‘Christ’ at length, what we find in fact is simply a quotation of the Psalms (1 Clem. 22.1-8, which matches Pss 34.11-17, 19; and 32.10). Thus Clement assumes that Jesus ‘speaks’ to us through the scriptures. Clement didn’t even have to say this. He simply assumes that a quotation of the Old Testament can be described as a quotation of ‘Christ’ without explanation or citation—the fact that the Corinthians don’t need this to be explained to them entails this was routinely understood within the churches of the time: that Jesus speaks through the Old Testament,

That Christ speaks through the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, yes. That is a reasonable inference regarding his and the Corinthians' beliefs.

rather than human tradition.

That cannot be inferred from the passage you've cited.

On the contrary, in chapter 32 Clement unequivocally asserts Jesus' human nature. Speaking of Abraham:

• Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh.

Likewise in chapter 42, echoing the gospels' theme of Jesus' teaching of the kingdom of God:

• The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done so] from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand.

Similarly Paul, writing to the church at Rome (of which Clement was later the bishop), leaves no scope for pretending that he refers to anything other than a human Christ descended from Israel:

• Romans 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

Likewise in his letter to the Corinthian church (the recipients of Clement's later letter), Paul clearly shows Jesus to be a man of flesh and blood who broke bread with his disciples, was betrayed and crucified:

• 1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
  
  1 Corinthians 9:23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.� 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.� 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.

[Elijah John]

Clement quotes the Old Testament when quoting Jesus.

Like Paul, Clement had no idea about an Earthly Jesus.

When Clement says, ‘Christ himself calls to us through the Holy Spirit’, and then quotes ‘Christ’ at length, what we find in fact is simply a quotation of the Psalms (1 Clem. 22.1-8, which matches Pss 34.11-17, 19; and 32.10). Thus Clement assumes that Jesus ‘speaks’ to us through the scriptures. Clement didn’t even have to say this. He simply assumes that a quotation of the Old Testament can be described as a quotation of ‘Christ’ without explanation or citation—the fact that the Corinthians don’t need this to be explained to them entails this was routinely understood within the churches of the time: that Jesus speaks through the Old Testament, rather than human tradition.

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[alwayson]

[Replying to post 2 by Mithrae]


In Romans 1:3 and Galatians 4:4: Paul uses the Greek word genomenos, "to happen, become, be made."

In his letters, Paul uses this word when stating God manufactured something directly. For example Adam.

In the HUNDREDS of times he uses the word, Paul NEVER uses this word for being born/descended.

His preferred word for being born/descended is gennao (Rom. 9:11 and Gal. 4:23, 29).

If you look at the literal reading of Old Testament 2 Samuel 7.12-14a, it says God extracted David's sperm.

Paul is saying Jesus' human body was manufactured from that sperm.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 2 by Mithrae]


In Romans 1:3 and Galatians 4:4: Paul uses the Greek word genomenos, "to happen, become, be made."

In his letters, Paul uses this word when stating God manufactured something directly. For example Adam.

In the HUNDREDS of times he uses the word, Paul NEVER uses this word for being born/descended.

His preferred word for being born/descended is gennao (Rom. 9:11 and Gal. 4:23, 29).

If you look at the literal reading of Old Testament 2 Samuel 7.12-14a, it says God extracted David's sperm.

Paul is saying Jesus' human body was manufactured from that sperm.

Ok...and what reason can you present to readers such as myself that we should take what Paul says seriously, as if he knew what he was talking about?

[alwayson]

[Replying to post 5 by rikuoamero]

Paul's letters are the earliest writings which talk about Jesus.

The Gospels and Acts were composed AFTER Paul's letters.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 5 by rikuoamero]

Paul's letters are the earliest writings which talk about Jesus.

The Gospels and Acts were composed AFTER Paul's letters.

...I fail to see how the date of Paul's writings have anything to do with whether or not we should think he knows what he's talking about when you say "Paul is saying Jesus' human body was manufactured from that sperm."

Remember, for one thing (and this is the least of Paul's problems), he never met Jesus, and by his own admission.

[Mithrae]

[Replying to post 2 by Mithrae]


In Romans 1:3 and Galatians 4:4: Paul uses the Greek word genomenos, "to happen, become, be made."

In his letters, Paul uses this word when stating God manufactured something directly. For example Adam.

In the HUNDREDS of times he uses the word, Paul NEVER uses this word for being born/descended.

His preferred word for being born/descended is gennao (Rom. 9:11 and Gal. 4:23, 29).

If you look at the literal reading of Old Testament 2 Samuel 7.12-14a, it says God extracted David's sperm.

Paul is saying Jesus' human body was manufactured from that sperm.

If that's the case (and that's a pretty big "if" that I'm not inclined to investigate right now), then contrary to your OP Paul still obviously believed in an earthly, human Jesus.

[alwayson]

[Replying to post 8 by Mithrae]

Paul viewed Jesus having a human body, manufactured by God, in outer space / lower heavens.

[alwayson]

Remember, for one thing (and this is the least of Paul's problems), he never met Jesus, and by his own admission.

Paul never indicated there was an Earthly Jesus to meet.

Remember the Gospels and Acts were composed AFTER Paul's letters.

Encyclopedia Britannica: "The books are not arranged chronologically in the New Testament. The Epistles of Paul, for example, which address the immediate problems of local churches shortly after Christ's death, are considered to be the earliest texts."

According to Richard Carrier, Paul's letters indicate that Cephas (Peter), James, Paul etc. only knew Jesus from VISIONS/DREAMS, based on the Old Testament scriptures. Not what we would consider real life.

1 Cor. 15.:

"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also."

The Scriptures Paul is referring to here are:

Septuagint version of Zechariah 3 and 6 gives the exact Greek name of Jesus, describing him as confronting Satan, being crowned king in heaven, ‘rising’ from his place below, and building up God’s house, given supreme authority over God’s domain and ending all sins in a single day.

Daniel 9 describes a messiah dying before the end of the world.

Isaiah 52-53 describes the cleansing of the world's sins by the death of a servant.

Psalm 22-24, which Mark copies the language of, describes the death-resurrection cycle.

Gerd Lüdemann:
"Not once does Paul refer to Jesus as a teacher, to his words as teaching, or to [any] Christians as disciples."

"Moreover, when Paul himself summarizes the content of his missionary preaching in Corinth (1 Cor. 2.1-2; 15.3-5), there is no hint that a narration of Jesus’ earthly life or a report of his earthly teachings was an essential part of it. . . . In the letter to the Romans, which cannot presuppose the apostle’s missionary preaching and in which he attempts to summarize its main points, we find not a single direct citation of Jesus’ teaching."

Furthermore, Richard Carrier points out Paul viewed the death of Jesus (who had a human body manufactured by God) as occurring in outer space.