Could God have removed original sin without Jesus?

[Justin108]

Considering the variety of denominations and interpretations on this site, there is obviously a diversity of opinion regarding Jesus' role and purpose. With that in mind, I will try to phrase my questions to be as inclusive as possible and to welcome the perspective of various different denominations, whether you believe in original sin or not.

1. What was Jesus' purpose on earth?

2. Could God have achieved Jesus' purpose without Jesus?
- if you believe in original sin, was Jesus absolutely necessary in defeating/removing original sin? Could God have defeated/removed original sin without Jesus' life/death?

3. If your answer to 2 is "God could not have defeated sin without Jesus", would this not suggest a lack of omnipotence?

4. Expecting some to answer 3 with "God chose to sacrifice Jesus as a means to uphold justice", can you perhaps demonstrate how sacrificing an innocent man in order to pay for the sins of a guilty man can ever be considered "justice"?

5. Expecting some to answer 4 with "Jesus paid the ransom/debt wit his life", can you perhaps explain why a good God would demand death as a ransom? Is this any different from a corrupt ruler demanding the head of his enemy? Is it not worse considering the fact that God seems content with the death of an innocent man to pay this ransom? Worst of all, the death of his own son? If a man broke a law and his king responded by stating that "I will forgive you your crime if my son hangs himself", would you not think this king is mad?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 16 by JehovahsWitness]

Is that because to answer them you would be forced to recognize that the religious stance needs to be abandoned?

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

I think it far more important to have studied theology before asking such questions.

The Pauline solution to the problem of sin is the mystical union of man with Christ's own death and resurrection.

So, is it possible for man to be united mystically with Christ's own death and resurrection without Christ actually having died and risen?

If you don't mind, can you please answer the questions I raised individually? All five if you can?

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 22 by Justin108]

Apologies. I responded directly to the title and didn't even read the OP!! Foot in mouth. However, a person like me cannot address your questions without drawing numerous distinctions. I doubt the following will be very satisfactory for you. Hence in the apologetic venue I avoid theological questions like this one.

1. What was Jesus' purpose on earth?

His private purpose? What the historical Jesus hoped to achieve? Or are you asking from a theological point of view; i.e., what God intended for Jesus? And of course the distinction here ushers in all sorts of problems: if Jesus was God incarnate, how could his conscious purpose not be that of God's? Indeed, how could the Son-incarnate know exactly what the Son from eternity intended?

2. Could God have achieved Jesus' purpose without Jesus?
- if you believe in original sin, was Jesus absolutely necessary in defeating/removing original sin? Could God have defeated/removed original sin without Jesus' life/death?

this I answered. No.

3. If your answer to 2 is "God could not have defeated sin without Jesus", would this not suggest a lack of omnipotence?

No. It suggests a lack of logic on our part. If a person thinks that God "could have created a square as blue as a triangle is round" is a legitimate request, it says more about the person than God. Of course not all propositions are as obviously ridiculous. We ascend to more difficult ones: Can God create a two dimensional triangle whose degrees exceed 180? This is only to say, can God create x to be y while x remains not y. i.e., a contradiction. No.

4. Expecting some to answer 3 with "God chose to sacrifice Jesus as a means to uphold justice", can you perhaps demonstrate how sacrificing an innocent man in order to pay for the sins of a guilty man can ever be considered "justice"?

N/A.

5. Expecting some to answer 4 with "Jesus paid the ransom/debt wit his life", can you perhaps explain why a good God would demand death as a ransom? Is this any different from a corrupt ruler demanding the head of his enemy? Is it not worse considering the fact that God seems content with the death of an innocent man to pay this ransom? Worst of all, the death of his own son? If a man broke a law and his king responded by stating that "I will forgive you your crime if my son hangs himself", would you not think this king is mad?

N/A.

[otseng]

This speaks volumes in and of itself.

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[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 23 by liamconnor]

No. It suggests a lack of logic on our part. If a person thinks that God "could have created a square as blue as a triangle is round" is a legitimate request, it says more about the person than God. Of course not all propositions are as obviously ridiculous. We ascend to more difficult ones: Can God create a two dimensional triangle whose degrees exceed 180? This is only to say, can God create x to be y while x remains not y. i.e., a contradiction. No.

The problem with your analogies is that we already know, a prior, that these things do not make sense. "create a square as blue as a triangle is round", is a nonsensical statement. Nothing in it makes sense. Part of the definition of a triangle is that it does not exceed 180 degrees.
Defeating sin/redeeming sin/forgiving sin etc (whatever phrase one cares to use), DOES make sense, and notice that I did not say anything about requiring an incarnate God-man to be nailed to a piece of wood there.

[Justin108]

His private purpose? What the historical Jesus hoped to achieve? Or are you asking from a theological point of view; i.e., what God intended for Jesus?

From a theological point of view. Why did God send Jesus to Earth?

if Jesus was God incarnate, how could his conscious purpose not be that of God's?

If Jesus was God incarnate, the question becomes "what was God's reason for coming to Earth as Jesus"

Indeed, how could the Son-incarnate know exactly what the Son from eternity intended?

Whether Jesus knew what his purpose was is irrelevant. I just want to know what that purpose is.

3. If your answer to 2 is "God could not have defeated sin without Jesus", would this not suggest a lack of omnipotence?

No. It suggests a lack of logic on our part. If a person thinks that God "could have created a square as blue as a triangle is round" is a legitimate request, it says more about the person than God.

What you're describing is logically impossible. Since you're using this as an explanation for why God could not remove original sin without Jesus' death, I am to understand you consider the removal of original sin without Jesus' death as logically impossible? Can you explain why you consider it logically impossible?

[1213]

1. What was Jesus' purpose on earth?

The Biblical reason is this:

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, Because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim release to the captives, Recovering of sight to the blind, To deliver those who are crushed, And to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."
Luke 4:18-19

He said to them, "Let's go elsewhere into the next towns, that I may preach there also, because for this reason I came forth."
Mark 1:38

But he said to them, "I must preach the good news of the Kingdom of God to the other cities also. For this reason I have been sent."
Luke 4:43

For God didn't send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.
John 3:17

Pilate therefore said to him, "Are you a king then?" Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. For this reason I have been born, and for this reason I have come into the world, that I should testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice."
John 18:37

Truly, truly I tell you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death at all.�
John. 8:51