Did God really wander around in the past?

[marco]

I had the good fortune to hear this excerpt from Kings this morning:

"When Elijah reached Horeb, the mountain of God, he spent the night in a cave."

Does God no longer frequent mountains? Why? And why do divinities like caves?



The passage that follows tells us God wasn't hiding in the wind, nor in the earthquake, nor in the fire but apparently he was in a zephyr. And the human being named Elijah went out to meet the divinity, covering his face respectfully, of course.

What distinguishes this tale from the many fictions in Roman and Greek mythology about people encountering gods? If Mike Smith related a similar tale today we would regard him as a liar or a fantasist. Why do we accord the unknown troglodyte, Elijah, more credence? Should we?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

My belief is that there is no part of the universe that is beyond God. Therefore Elijah (who wasn't travelling to communicate with God but rather he was fleeing Jezabel and wanted to die; evidently travelling into the desert without provisions. Maybe he thought Mt Horeb* would be a fitting location to breath his last, since it seems he had some fixed location in mind when he started his journey...).

In any case my belief is that one is was just as likely to interact with God up a mountain as in a valley or city or in the middle of the ocean.

PSALMS 139:7-10
Where can I escape from your spirit,
And where can I run away from your face?
If I were to ascend to heaven, you would be there,
And if I were to make my bed in the Grave, look! you would be there.
If I would fly away with the wings of the dawn
To reside by the most remote sea,
Even there your hand would lead me
And your right hand would take hold of me.

JW


* I do not believe Mount Horeb is called "the mountain of God" because God literally lived there or that communication with Him can only be obtained from that location, but rather that it was the location of some significant events in the History of the Isralites (Moses & burning bush, the Ten Commandments ...)

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

Your OP has asked a lot of disparate questions. May I presume they all are meant to conceal an argument: the O.T. is ridiculous?


I suggest that the sarcasm of your OP's detracts from good, healthy discussions.


At any rate, I will pretend like the questions were honest.

a zephyr? Provide the Hebrew word which designates this modern invention.

"When Elijah reached Horeb, the mountain of God, he spent the night in a cave."

Does God no longer frequent mountains? Why? And why do divinities like caves?

As God is believed (by them no less than us: cf. Solomon's dedication of the temple) to be omnipresent, he 'frequents' all time and space. Since we, however, occupy only portions of time and space, God, obviously, will reveal himself in portions of time and space. If you want to know why he chose to wait until Elijah reached Horeb, ask God. If he doesn't tell you, then he doesn't want you to know.

Since all your questions can only be subjectively answered, I will offer a subjective answer based on literary analysis. Elijah had just staged a rather remarkable attack on the priests of Baal. A kind of Moses-like moment in pagan Israel. And yet nothing happened. No great exodus moment. No national repentance of the people. Instead, he was a single man persecuted.

So he fled to Horeb, where once Moses convened with God, who appeared amidst fire and wind and powerful elements. A kind of pilgrimage in search of answers (cf. Paul's own retreat to the same region in Gal.).

All the elements that accompanied God's descent upon Sinai also accompanied Elijah's time upon Horeb...but this time, God was not among these powerful elements. Instead, he revealed himself in something far less impressive; far more subtle.

And with this came the news that God was not going to execute another exodus moment: with signs and wonders. He was going to clean up Israel from within. Slowly, with only a few thousand prophets loyal to him.

No doubt the subjective nature of this explanation will get only scorn. (I wonder whether the same skepticism and scorn was applied to one's professor as he explicated the Great Gatsby, or Homer's Iliad).

[JehovahsWitness]

... God was not among these powerful elements.

Yes, I think its interesting that Jeremiah is careful to point out that God was not "in" the elements. Unlike many Pagan gods that actually transform themselves in to some physical form and appear in the form of animals or some other physical element, YHWH (Jehovah) was demonstrating that he had the power to control these elements but the elements were not Him.

Maybe deists should take note.


JW

[marco]

I suggest that the sarcasm of your OP's detracts from good, healthy discussions.

I shall bear that in mind when I next open a thread, Liam. We must therefore make do with unhealthy discussion.

a zephyr? Provide the Hebrew word which designates this modern invention.

The Ford Zephyr was an excellent car and the passage deals with conveyances for God. The breeze of course can be taken poetically as God's voice. You are as capable as I am of finding the Hebrew mot juste.

As God is believed (by them no less than us: cf. Solomon's dedication of the temple) to be omnipresent, he 'frequents' all time and space.

The divine omnipresence isn't in dispute here, just his ancient fondness for caves and high mountains. I was wondering why he's not been heard or seen there for a few millennia.

No doubt the subjective nature of this explanation will get only scorn. (I wonder whether the same skepticism and scorn was applied to one's professor as he explicated the Great Gatsby, or Homer's Iliad).

When I read of Greek gods wandering in fields, doing what gods do, I am not in the least scornful. The Hebrew God is placed around caves and mountains and of course it is of interest why his authors should place him there. I grant he can go where he chooses. Recalling my unapproachable Latin professor or indeed my bad-tempered mathematics professor I would not have expressed anything but awe. On hearing the extract from Kings, it was not awe that I felt. My best regards.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

Omnipotence, Christians should take note, was invented by the Greeks, in the fourth century BC. YHVH never was claimed to be all powerful until the Jews tried desperately to make their parochial deity compete.

We could, I suppose call him YHVH 2.0, derived competitively once they discovered Zeus' all-power. Or we can note the amazing coincidence that once Rome conquered Jerusalem, suddenly YHVH, or Yahu, is suddenly transformed into Jehovah, which is nothing more than the phonetic for Jove.

Is it interesting that YHVH became all powerful as soon as he adopted Jove's name, and not centuries before.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 5 by marco]

liamconnor wrote:



I suggest that the sarcasm of your OP's detracts from good, healthy discussions.

I shall bear that in mind when I next open a thread, Liam. We must therefore make do with unhealthy discussion.

I hope so, for I think they are beneath you (and I mean that with respect).

liamconnor wrote:


a zephyr? Provide the Hebrew word which designates this modern invention.

The Ford Zephyr was an excellent car and the passage deals with conveyances for God. The breeze of course can be taken poetically as God's voice. You are as capable as I am of finding the Hebrew mot juste.

I already know the Hebrew. Zephyr, no wonder, is not recommended in any lexicon.

So then, you either attempted a novel definition of a Hebrew word, or attempted to make fun of an English one.

liamconnor wrote:


As God is believed (by them no less than us: cf. Solomon's dedication of the temple) to be omnipresent, he 'frequents' all time and space.


The divine omnipresence isn't in dispute here, just his ancient fondness for caves and high mountains. I was wondering why he's not been heard or seen there for a few millennia.

That is hardly made clear in the OP. Why bring up a specific occurrence? Your point is not why God does not appear on Horeb, or any mountain, but why God does not appear anywhere: a plain, a plateau, a valley.

I don't understand the point of singling out Elijah: it only misleads people like me who have studied multiple commentaries to offer a literary analysis.

When I read of Greek gods wandering in fields, doing what gods do, I am not in the least scornful. The Hebrew God is placed around caves and mountains and of course it is of interest why his authors should place him there. I grant he can go where he chooses. Recalling my unapproachable Latin professor or indeed my bad-tempered mathematics professor I would not have expressed anything but awe. On hearing the extract from Kings, it was not awe that I felt. My best regards.

So what is your point? That because Kings places its god among mountains and not fields, this is alarming? Had he been placed in a field it would not be?


Perhaps you started a thread intended to be polemical and it no longer is...?

I have done the same here....frequently.

No shame in moving on.

[marco]

Perhaps you started a thread intended to be polemical and it no longer is...?

Had I wished polemic, I'd have done polemic. I heard the passage in a service that morning and my thoughts turned to God of the past physically communicating with unlettered souls. Such a pity he does not descend today on our most intelligent citizens to update his ancient instructions, given modern advances.

A zephyr is a light breeze, a common enough word.

[marco]

... God was not among these powerful elements.

Yes, I think its interesting that Jeremiah is careful to point out that God was not "in" the elements.

I think the rock-shattering gale followed by the earthquake followed by the conflagration is gilding the lily, even for Biblical authors. As a poem the passage works well enough.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]



"When Elijah reached Horeb, the mountain of God, he spent the night in a cave."

"Does God no longer frequent mountains? Why? And why do divinities like caves? "

You have not given the refference.. according to the above Elijah spent the night in a cave.
Why is that a problem?