tam wrote:
RightReason wrote:
[
Replying to tam]
You will note that in each of your quotes, Christ did not tell people to listen to His Church. He is simply stating that those who listen to them (whom He sent) are listening to Him, and those who are rejecting them (whom He sent) are rejecting Him.
Hmmmm . . . IMO, it would be extremely difficult to suggest Christ was not establishing His Church.
Who said He never established His Church?
You have basically suggested here (and elsewhere) that the only words that we truly have to listen to of His are, "listen to the Church", by which YOU mean the RCC.
Except you will not find the words, "Listen to the Church", being spoken by Him.
If what you believe to be true actually
were the case, then what is the point of us knowing any of His other commands or words? If the only command that actually mattered was... well... that one you keep insisting upon, but that He never actually said?
It is amazing to me how Christ establishing the Church bothers so many people.
Who is bothered by Him establishing His Church? His Church is His Body, His Bride. Made up of all the members OF His Body, over whom HE - Christ - is the Head.
Given all that, we really ought to take that into consideration when asked the OP’s question, “What is the correct way to interpret the Bible?� We interpret the Bible with the help of the guidance of the Church who is guided by the Holy Spirit.
The
whole church (the body of Christ) is guided
by Christ, and given holy spirit. Not just some men who "claim" to be the Church.
Once again, nothing else makes sense. This would be the only assurance of unity of teaching and knowing we are getting it right.
What good is unity of teaching if the teaching is wrong? Then everyone is just unified in being wrong. That has happened numerous times in the history of the RCC.
Your understanding that we simply interpret the Bible via ‘the light of Christ’ has given us what we have today – thousands of splinter groups from Christ’s Church all teaching and believing different things.
Hold all things up against the light that IS Christ. How can anyone who follows and belongs to Christ argue against that?
If the RCC had done that a little more then we would not have had persecution and torture and imprisonment of those the RCC deemed heretics; among other things that were done and taught falsely in the name of God.
And instead of blaming splinter groups on people testing the inspired expressions; holding all things up against the Light that is Christ (which is indeed something we are supposed to DO:
I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. Revelation 2:2
Perhaps you might consider that many people left the RCC (and other subsequent groups) because they could see that Christ was NOT with those groups. They did just what Christ praised people FOR doing in the above quote. They could see this by their fruit and by their teachings, both of which were not what Christ taught or did.
Unfortunately, instead of just coming out and coming TO and remaining IN Christ, some went and formed new "daughters" (sects). Perhaps some also failed to tear everything down that they learned from their former religions. Because that is what one must do: tear everything straight down to the foundation cornerstone (Christ), and then ask Him to help them rebuild solely and directly upon
Him.
But instead of continuing what will just be a repetition of an earlier conversation between us, I think I will just link to the start of that conversation here:
viewtopic.php?t=31377&postdays=0&postor ... &start=630
And here, where it continues for about 8 pages or so:
viewtopic.php?t=31377&postdays=0&postor ... &start=660
Those He sends are not to take credit for what He has given them
Unless the credit is to give glory to God . . .
Yes, but then they would
not be taking the credit for themselves, right? Which is what I said, yes?
His words are certainly not to be used as a 'weapon' by men
Aren’t they? We are in a spiritual battle. Scripture is clear on this. We are expected to fight the good fight.
Hmm. My complete sentence was this:
His words are certainly not to be used as a 'weapon' by men, to make people listen to and obey them; or to gain followers after themselves.
Do you think His words were meant to be used as a weapon by men to make people listen to and obey them, to gain followers after themselves?
(He certainly is not telling anyone to listen to men who claim to be His 'church', especially not those men who would teach and/or command others to do and believe things that are not what He taught.
Agree. So one must be able to know and identify His Church (I already discussed this earlier) and be wary of anyone coming on the scene later and teaching that which is contrary to Sacred Scripture and contrary to Sacred Tradition.
It does not matter if they came on the scene
later or if they were on the scene from the
start. Because there were indeed false christs and false prophets from the start.
As the above quote and many others reveal.
One needs to remain in CHRIST and in HIS word. Or else one is going to be easily misled by those false prophets and false christs.
As for tradition, here is what my Lord had to say about that:
"The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus and saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. (The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to
the tradition of the elders. When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other
traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.)
So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “
Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?�
He replied,
“Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’
You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.�
And he continued,
“You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.�
And just because someone put the word 'sacred' in front of the word 'tradition' does not make tradition sacred. My Lord emphasized TRUTH, love, mercy, forgiveness, faith... He never emphasized tradition, except like He did above; pointing out where the people were nullifying the word of God for the sake of their traditions; not able or willing to even see past their traditions so as to understand the truth.
I cannot recall any Christian ever stating that He revealed to them that He was not the light or the life or that we have life through Him. If anyone ever did profess that, well, it would be a simple enough matter to quote what He said about the matter.
And if ‘the light of Christ’ reveals to me infant baptism is the way to go and ‘the light of Christ’ reveals to another sincere Christian that baptism ought to only occur at the age of reason, which one of us is getting it right? Which one of us is our Lord actually speaking to? If ‘the light of Christ’ has revealed to me the True Presence in the Holy Eucharist, while another sincere Christian claims ‘the light of Christ’ has revealed a mere symbolic meaning, which one of us is Christ speaking to?
So test the inspired expression... against Christ, against love, against what is written (beginning with what Christ taught). Hold all things up against the Light that is Christ
See my comment above. Sincere truth seeking Christians have tested what they feel is being revealed to them and found support/evidence in Scripture to support it. They have tested their belief against love, against Christ, and against what is written. They have held all things up to the Light of Christ and still come to very differing views.
This is problematic.
If they have come to different views; they did not each receive their understanding from Christ. Perhaps one or both of them are holding on to baggage/teachings from their former religions. It can be very hard to let go of things that have been deeply ingrained. But they can reason together; and sometimes the issue is resolved in that way. But even if the issue is not resolved in that way at that time, but the things that someone believes they learned from Christ is not against anything Christ teaches, and it is not against love, and it is not against what is written (beginning with what Christ has said), then what problem would you have with them?
Love covers over a multitude of sins, yes? So we would go our way in peace, and leave Christ to correct what needs to be corrected, if indeed one is truly seeking and loving HIM.
The only thing that we can do is share as we have learned from Christ. The rest is not up to us.
And why Christ did and would establish an authoritative Church – an earthly voice on earth – I think if you really think about it, you will admit that makes sense. In fact, the only thing that makes sense.
The RCC, you mean? No, that makes no sense at all. None whatsoever. That church is responsible for terrible atrocities that they claimed to have done in the name of God; things that go against Christ, and against love, and against what is written.
But like the WTS (and probably other denominations that I do not know about), all the religion has to do is convince its adherents that IT is God's earthly voice; God's sole channel on earth... and then to most people in them, it no longer matters what the religion teaches or what it does. They will remain no matter what. Because they are longer testing anything against
Christ to know if it is true; they are testing things against their religion to know if it is true.
He is the Truth, yes? Not men, not religion, not religious leaders. Right?
If He is the truth, listen to what He says!!!
Do not put your faith in men, put your faith in God, and when you do you hear these words . . .
“So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach�. –Matthew 23:3
“So practice and obey whatever they tell you, but don't follow their example. For they don't practice what they teach.� –Matthew 23:3
^ In your Bible? Yes?
