marco wrote:
William wrote:
Everything true is provably true. Therefore if everything in the bible is true, it will have been proven to be true.
If this is not the case, then the statement 'Everything in the bible is true' remains a false statement.
Your second statement is false. Something may be "provable" but the proof has not yet been found. In any case, the statement that everything in the Bible is true does not submit itself to human proof since it is accepted as axiomatic that God inspires truth. Axioms require no proof.
Because we cannot prove something is true it is certainly not the case we can then deduce it is false.
You bring up and interesting set of points. I will go through them one at a time:
It would be lovely, in mathematics, if we were able to prove all our apparently true conjectures.
1: Conjectures cannot be proven and still remain conjecture. Mathematics tend to show proof. 1 and 1 added together become 2.
There are situations where one thing put together with another thing do not equal two things. They now are one thing, which is different from the two things they once were.
Your second statement is false. Something may be "provable" but the proof has not yet been found.
Everything is provable in that case. A pink unicorn may be 'provable' but has not yet been found, because they exist on another planet, far, far away.
One can
believe that a pink unicorn exists without proof and from the belief, one can claim the pink unicorn exists, but belief based claims cannot be regarded as proof.
"Everything is provable" does not equal "Everything in the Bible is true"
In any case, the statement that everything in the Bible is true does not submit itself to human proof since it is accepted as axiomatic that God inspires truth. Axioms require no proof.
Axioms are statements/propositions which are regarded as established, accepted OR self evidently true.
In the case of the statement/proposition that "Everything in the Bible is true" on the grounds that it is an established proposition believed by hundreds of millions of Christians, that on its own falls under the fallacy of:
Argumentum ad populum (Latin for "argument to the people") which is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."
A statement or proposition which has been established and accepted, is not something which can truly said to be the case in relation to the bible as a book "The Bible is the word of GOD" and certainly the statement "Everything in the Bible is true" cannot be regarded as an axiom. Not everyone accepts the establishment of those claims as being truthful.
Certainly the statements "The bible is the word of GOD" and "Everything in the Bible is true" are not self evident. They are rather, expressions of belief, and expressions of belief are not to be conflated with evidence of truth.
There may be things within the bible that are self evidently true, but there definitely are things within the bible which are not. So again, no justification to claim Axiom.
I have shown here that your reasoning in doing so, is faulty.
One last note. In relation to your comment
"it is accepted as axiomatic that God inspires truth. Axioms require no proof."
If GOD does indeed inspire truth and we accept that axiom as part of the overall description of 'what makes GOD, a GOD' , GOD has the ability to inspire truth in other self aware individuate consciousnesses, so what that can show us in relation to the behavior of human beings is that those who are inspired to be truthful about some things are being inspired by GOD. The other things they are NOT inspired to being truthful about, thus says they are NOT being inspired by GOD in relation to those other things...so they are only sometimes inspired by GOD, as they choose.
It also implies that while GOD has the ability, GOD does not have the means to MAKE anyone connect with GOD in order to be inspired by truth. Thus GOD does not have the ability to MAKE anyone DO anything. Inspiration in the only method by which GOD can work with individuals in relation to truth, and even then, the process is typically long and drawn out because the individual has to
want to be inspired and because the individual has been taught and thus assumes without question certain things which are called truth but are not truth, as being true anyway, the process effectively ceases. Being inspired by truth has to be a consistent and ongoing process because what the truth is doing is dismantling the lies, and if a person believes something to be truth because they have been told it is the truth and chooses not to test it and sort the wheat from the chaff, then the person is clearly NOT inspired in the area - the person has lost the inspiration to continue unveiling the truth, which amounts to the person effective choosing to disconnect from GOD.
Also, there are those who are inspired by truth who are not theists and do not believe in any GOD, yet the axiom remains and thus GOD does not have the ability to MAKE anyone see that they inspired by truth because of GOD. They are still inspired by truth, but lack the understanding or belief that GOD is behind that impulse.
This should not matter to GOD because the individual is at least having that connect on a subconscious level, as long as they are continually being inspired to seek truth in any and all situations.
We can also examine theists and their organised religions to see if they are being inspired by truth and thus by GOD, and if they are not, then we can ascertain by that, that they are disconnected from GOD because of whatever it is that prevents them from being inspired by GOD in relation to the truth.
Thus 'what is the truth' has to be answered in relation to that. and we cannot be expected to believe what THEY claim to be the truth, simply because they claim it to be the truth.
Otherwise we will fail to find out for ourselves what is the truth by effectively allowing them to be the medium in relation to the individual and the truth.
Thus, in relation to Christendom and Christians who claim that the bible is the word of GOD and therefore everything in the bible is true actually replaces GOD inspired truth seeking because the bible has become the medium rather than GOD.
In relation to the likelihood that the TRUTH is that the bible and Christianity were the creation of Roman elitists, Christians serve the elitists even while believing they serve GOD.
The elitists agenda thus becomes the 'truth' which inspires Christendom effectively replacing GOD as the one who inspires truth by replacing GOD with the bible.
This is a tried and true method of control and manipulation by the elitists of every culture past and present and every major organised religion has fallen prey to it.
That, I am inspired to understand by GOD, is the TRUTH. Furthermore, history also provides the evidence as do present times which can be observed as evidence and truthfully only able to be interpreted one way.
All theists involved with organised religions have been and still are, deceived and GOD has been replaced by mediums such as the bible, and other holy writ and the truth has been replaced by deception and theists are supporting deception believing it to be truth.
In the end, the axiom "GOD inspires truth" is no justification for the claim that "The bible is the word of GOD and therefore everything in the Bible is true."