Was it right for God to order Abraham to kill?

[marco]

In modern times we have people telling us that their God told them to kill. We think this absurd. But God told Abraham to murder Isaac. It doesn't matter what the outcome was, we have a precedent for God telling a human to murder another human and not, apparently, because the boy deserved to die, as did the suckling infants in another tale.

Is the command correct just because it is God's?

Was Abraham right in agreeing to commit murder?

[rikuoamero]

I really think, that this is another cautionary tale, like Jepthah's later. Lesson is be prepared to give all to God. I wonder if it occured as rendered. This is all oral tradition passed down for many generations. However, oral tradition is, usually accurate, but not down to the details. We can only ponder at this point. The world was a lot different back then, as it was just 50 years ago. What passes muster now, didn't then and Vice versa.

I agree. What I think happened is that some Hebrews at some point came up with the idea that human sacrifices are bad. They wanted this nifty new idea to spread. Thing is, in those days (and seemingly still is the case in these days sadly), ideas aren't given much weight unless a god is attached to them.
So a story was spread where (a) God teaches a lesson regarding human sacrifice, and it didn't occur to them that might just sound ridiculous if it were something that would play out in real life.

Same thing goes for Jeptha. Makes for a good story, about not being reckless...but if it actually happened? Then we need to demand why God didn't stop the sacrifice of the daughter. You don't teach children about life-threatening acts by allowing them to poke a fork in an electrical outlet, for instance, not in real life anyway.

[brianbbs67]

I really think, that this is another cautionary tale, like Jepthah's later. Lesson is be prepared to give all to God. I wonder if it occured as rendered. This is all oral tradition passed down for many generations. However, oral tradition is, usually accurate, but not down to the details. We can only ponder at this point. The world was a lot different back then, as it was just 50 years ago. What passes muster now, didn't then and Vice versa.

I agree. What I think happened is that some Hebrews at some point came up with the idea that human sacrifices are bad. They wanted this nifty new idea to spread. Thing is, in those days (and seemingly still is the case in these days sadly), ideas aren't given much weight unless a god is attached to them.
So a story was spread where (a) God teaches a lesson regarding human sacrifice, and it didn't occur to them that might just sound ridiculous if it were something that would play out in real life.

Same thing goes for Jeptha. Makes for a good story, about not being reckless...but if it actually happened? Then we need to demand why God didn't stop the sacrifice of the daughter. You don't teach children about life-threatening acts by allowing them to poke a fork in an electrical outlet, for instance, not in real life anyway.

Why does God allow it? Good Question. Our free will is the answer. If we don't intersect His will, ours won't be touched. A consequence of choice.

You talked about not letting a child get hurt. My yougest daughter had an affinity for grabbing things on the stove that were way to hot. She liked to cook. I kept telling her, no, you'll get burnt.

One night, after dinner, as the stove cooled, i caught her , out of the corner of my eye, reaching for the stove. It had been about 15-20 minutes. It had cooled but was still hot enough.(which is why I let her proceed) She finally touched it and recoiled. No blisters , but realized what I had warned her would happen. Good life lesson.

[rikuoamero]

I really think, that this is another cautionary tale, like Jepthah's later. Lesson is be prepared to give all to God. I wonder if it occured as rendered. This is all oral tradition passed down for many generations. However, oral tradition is, usually accurate, but not down to the details. We can only ponder at this point. The world was a lot different back then, as it was just 50 years ago. What passes muster now, didn't then and Vice versa.

I agree. What I think happened is that some Hebrews at some point came up with the idea that human sacrifices are bad. They wanted this nifty new idea to spread. Thing is, in those days (and seemingly still is the case in these days sadly), ideas aren't given much weight unless a god is attached to them.
So a story was spread where (a) God teaches a lesson regarding human sacrifice, and it didn't occur to them that might just sound ridiculous if it were something that would play out in real life.

Same thing goes for Jeptha. Makes for a good story, about not being reckless...but if it actually happened? Then we need to demand why God didn't stop the sacrifice of the daughter. You don't teach children about life-threatening acts by allowing them to poke a fork in an electrical outlet, for instance, not in real life anyway.

Why does God allow it? Good Question. Our free will is the answer. If we don't intersect His will, ours won't be touched. A consequence of choice.

You talked about not letting a child get hurt. My yougest daughter had an affinity for grabbing things on the stove that were way to hot. She liked to cook. I kept telling her, no, you'll get burnt.

One night, after dinner, as the stove cooled, i caught her , out of the corner of my eye, reaching for the stove. It had been about 15-20 minutes. It had cooled but was still hot enough.(which is why I let her proceed) She finally touched it and recoiled. No blisters , but realized what I had warned her would happen. Good life lesson.

You do realise there's a difference between an electrical outlet/just used stove versus a stove that has had time to cool to uncomfortably warm? So in your case, you thought it was safe to allow the lesson.

[marco]

Abraham bound Isaac and would have murdered him had it been God's will.

And that would never be God's will at this point as it was God's will to make an everlasting covenant with Isaac and Isaac's seed!

And that had not as yet occurred.

Isaac was never in any danger that day!

You are reading what is not there based on your erroneous belief that God does not change his mind or regret a previous decision. Look at these:

Genesis 6:7

So the LORD said, "I will blot out man, whom I have created, from the face of the earth--every man and beast and crawling creature and bird of the air--for I am grieved that I have made them."

1 Samuel 15:11

"I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned away from following Me and has not carried out My instructions." And Samuel was distressed and cried out to the LORD all that night.

Exodus 32:14

So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.



But once again you avoid the point being made. Let's rejoice that Isaac wasn't murdered. He was bound on a sacrificial altar and his father drew a knife - with no intention to kill him. Why would any father want to do this? But let's accept this as being a good and happy outcome. The question asked is was it right for God to order Abraham to kill Isaac in the first place? No, it wasn't. There was no need to test him since God already knew what the man was capable of. The state of mind of the abused son is completely ignored, as if the boy is just a bit of furniture.

We should have the following verses (fictional):


And it greatly repented God that he commanded his servant to kill his son. For God now saw that others would think that they too were to sacrifice their children when they were bowed low in grief and heavilily hopeful of the Lord's instructions. So God ordered that the reference to the base command be erased from the Holy Book, for there it had no place.


Sadly, it is there for all to read and for some poor souls to emulate.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 133 by marco]

"So God ordered that the reference to the base command be erased from the Holy Book, for there it had no place.

Sadly, it is there for all to read and for some poor souls to emulate."


It is there to question, to learn from and be wiser.

A believer especially ones who read NT know what God is like as Jesus had shown us.
We know that God is good and and he could not give that instruction to Abraham.

Many Christians (and others) say God has told them to do this or that.
It comes from their inner self, consciousness and or imagination/enthusiasm and we ascribed it to God.
Abraham discovered a new religion and found that some things are not allowed.

[marco]

It is there to question, to learn from and be wiser.

Which is why I placed the OP, though it doesn't take wisdom to know you shouldn't tell people to murder their sons, for whatever reason.

Many Christians (and others) say God has told them to do this or that.

And wouldn't it be good to be able to say that God would NEVER ask a person to murder someone. Had Abraham obeyed his conscience he would have refused - preferring instead to offer his own life if God was so eager for blood.

Abraham discovered a new religion and found that some things are not allowed.

No - he found that God can ask ANYTHING and that God is arbitrarily all-powerful, changing his mind when it suits him. If one is subject to bullying one complies. That seems to be the lesson. The needs and wishes of Isaac in all this are completely forgotten.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 135 by marco]



"And wouldn't it be good to be able to say that God would NEVER ask a person to murder someone. Had Abraham obeyed his conscience he would have refused - preferring instead to offer his own life if God was so eager for blood. "

Many would agree that God would never ask a person to murder someone.

Abraham acted correctly.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 136 by Monta]

Interestingly this brings to mind the dialogue between Abraham and Yahweh outside the gates of Sodom. Abraham questioned Yahweh's decision to destroy the city and everyone within its walls. Yahweh left Abraham's last question unanswered and went on to destroy the city. Abraham questioned Yahweh years before before the Isaac issue. Abraham was one who questioned God. It was the true God in Abraham's heart that stopped his hand , that could not let him kill his son.

Where ever Abraham got the idea to kill his son I can't say but Abraham was willing to question that idea and knowing the true God of conscience within could not in good conscience kill Isaac. Was God right? yes the true God of Abraham was right to stop the killing. The idea to sacrifice children was not from the true God. Remember Abraham knew false gods, and he smashed them. Lets say he knew a false god when he saw one . He knew the idea to kill Isaac was wrong and couldn't do it no matter what. Why? because Abraham knew the God of heart.

[marco]

Many would agree that God would never ask a person to murder someone.

Then many would not be reading their Bible properly. God did indeed command, rather than ask. One cannot erase this request by looking at the joyful conclusion where the hysterical Isaac is untied and an angel tends to the scars on his poor wrists. Yes, I've imagined that part just as some imagine God didn't tell Abraham to murder. He did.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 138 by marco]

perhaps God wasn't fully revealed and Abraham was relating to the war god because that was all that had been revealed. It seems God reveals himself progressively. Abraham was ahead of his times by not killing Isaac . It was Abraham who decided not to kill Isaac thus revealing a merciful divine character for the first time through him. Perhaps Man and God must work together to make the fullness of God more fully real in this world. God's merciful self was revealed through Abraham.