Was it right for God to order Abraham to kill?

[marco]

In modern times we have people telling us that their God told them to kill. We think this absurd. But God told Abraham to murder Isaac. It doesn't matter what the outcome was, we have a precedent for God telling a human to murder another human and not, apparently, because the boy deserved to die, as did the suckling infants in another tale.

Is the command correct just because it is God's?

Was Abraham right in agreeing to commit murder?

[marco]

Perhaps, sweet Marco, there is nothing to defend. Perhaps it all lies in understanding.

It is always wise, dear nurse, to leave God to make the decisions, given that God knows best. Foolish humans may never know why God told Abraham to commit murder. We could hope it was a once and only divine aberration but today, of course, Yahweh's replacement, Allah, who is great, seems to be issuing similar orders. Belief in God can produce the sweetest of people - and the vilest.

[myth-one.com]

God did not tell Abraham to murder Isaac.

He told Abraham to "offer him for a burnt offering."

And Abraham did so.

Yes, a rose by another name.... You think this makes a difference? And how was Abraham to offer his son without murdering him? The outcome is not in question, just the requirement for Abraham to kill his son. The question is: Should we condemn the command to offer a burnt offering by killing even though it comes from God? I think we should or we lose a little of our humanity.

And further, I think jihadists who murder infants in Allah's praise have surrendered their humanity, as did Abraham.

Before anyone answers your question, they should have the facts about what really occurred that day on the mountain in Moriah:

God, Abraham, and probably even Isaac knew that no harm would befall Isaac on that day.

And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. (Genesis 22:1-2)

Abraham did not question God, but arose the next morning and set off to Moriah. When they reached the place God showed him, he instructed the two men who accompanied them:

And Abraham said to his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. (Genesis 22:5)

That is, we will go and return.

On the way up the mountain, Isaac asks his father:

Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. (Genesis 22:7-8)

Abraham and Isaac reach the top, build an altar, lay the wood, and Abraham binds Isaac and lays him on the wood on the altar. Then:

And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thy hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. (Genesis 22:10-13)

Abraham knew Isaac would return with him because God promised Abraham that He would make an everlasting covenant with his son Isaac and Isaac's seed. This is a story of incredible faith! Abraham had faith that God would keep his promise.

Abraham was one hundred years old and his wife Sarah was ninety when God said:

Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. (Genesis 17:19)

If Isaac was killed the above promise could not be fulfilled. God could not establish his covenant with Isaac and his seed if Isaac was dead! Abraham did not know how God would accomplish it, but he had faith that Isaac would not be killed that day. God was testing Abraham's faith.

And there is an obvious dualism and prophecy at work here. Abraham was instructed to offer his only son as a sacrifice. Later, God would offer his only begotten son as a sacrifice for mankind's sins. In both instances, God supplied the sacrificial lamb, a ram with his horns caught in the thicket and Jesus. Mankind could then gain eternal life through faith in Jesus. That is, through believing in Jesus, mankind's reward is something in the future which we cannot now see. That reward is eternal life.

Abraham did not know what God would do.

But allowing Isaac to be killed was am impossibility.

[marco]

Before anyone answers your question, they should have the facts about what really occurred that day on the mountain in Moriah:

God, Abraham, and probably even Isaac knew that no harm would befall Isaac on that day.

1. This does NOT address the question: Was it right to order the murder of Isaac. It addresses a scenario that may or may not have followed.

2. Facts don't come with "probably". Facts are not related to ideas in people's heads. The single fact is God ordered Abraham to kill Isaac.
3. The silly "nudge-nudge" scene where they all know it's a game makes the story ludicrous. Is it just to frighten the reader and at the end smile and say: Got you there!

Abraham did not know what God would do.

But allowing Isaac to be killed was am impossibility.

Yes, he didn't know. And God does change his mind, as in the bargain game over Sodom's fate. May I repeat - the consequences, the follow up, the actions of Abraham AFTER the command are not in question. We are examining the command: Kill your son! The outcome, Abraham's faith and your story details, are irrelevant.

[bluethread]

The passage is among the most problematic in the Scriptures. Given the it was the custom of the time among the nations, I see this as attest to see if Avram was as dedicated to Adonai, to the same extent that others were dedicated to their deities. The outcome is significant, because it set a president that this practice was not acceptable.

Yes, I know the various excuses given for the problematic command. Basically the question is: Should we do evil in God's name or at God's apparent request? Apparently we should, relying on God to stop us at the last moment. No thought is given to poor Isaac who seems no more important than a dove or pigeon.

God presumably knows the hearts of all and his "test" was therefore pointless; but it told people that it is right to do evil if we think God commands it. In this light butchery, burning and beheadings seem reasonable. I would like to have read the preferable text where Abraham says simply: "It is wrong, my Lord, to kill. If you desire my death, or my son's, you have the means to achieve it."

How does one know what "evil" is. Is it not one of the points of Genesis to define what are Adonai's ways(tov) and the ways of the nations(ra'). A concept of absolute "evil" does not appear to be the Scriptural approach. Tov and ra' are comparative. I do not think that this was lost on Yitzchak. Though the KJV uses the term "lad", he was not a child, but, if I recall, based on the age of Avraham when he was born, he was in his 20's. Being alone with his elderly father, he was able to resist. There is more going on here than a simple interaction between Avraham and Adonai. In addition to Yitzchak, there are also all of those who would later hear of the interaction. How would one have known that human sacrifice was "evil"? It was not an unknown practice, but was it tov or ra'. This passage makes it clear, it is not tov.

[evilsorcerer1]

The god that Abraham heard telling him to kill was the same one that told him to write the Bible, the one that everyone hears, the little voice that is ourselves. Jesus, the serpent, they all had something in common and that is they were not holy sacrifices but scapegoats so people could spread false religions and create wars. The prophecy about the two witnesses laying dead in the street never happened, and the two witnesses were symbolic only one was John the Baptist and John the author of Revelation. When John the Baptist (a symbol) died his symbolism lived on through his tribe (Levi). That's why Jesus said if you can believe it it is Elijah. And when John said one greater than me is coming he meant God, and so the people that wrote the new testament probably descended from scholars of the OT. But from studying I found it is written about the tribe of Judah ' The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from his descendants, until the coming of the one to whom it belongs, the one whom all nations will honor.' I think the connection was to Judah who gave his scepter to Tamar as a iou and meant there would always be a continued bloodline until the one called the one true god, the one and only spirit, returns for the apocalypse. But I've studied hard and have a lot of solid information on the subject. For one the symbols seemed to come in a particular order according to a blessing from their father Jacob, but I can discuss that later. But Judah, Levi, and Simeon were three of the main ones. John the Baptist was from the tribe of Levi as was the author of Revelation. And I believe when Moses and Elijah in the garden with Jesus and his disciples (one Peter and one James and John the sons of Zebedee. It may have symbolized a supposed passing of power to them. But the other tribe many would say was Simeon because he was first in the blessing and shared the blessing with his brother Levi. So the similarities between Simeon and some disciples like Judas Iscariot. Jesus said to Peter 'get behind me satan' and although the Bible says 'Satan entered judas' it I believe was an analogy of how the world looked at them as evil. And it would be considered worse by many to believe an anonymous author over the savior. Also it was written Peter betrayed Jesus 3 times and also judas betrayed Jesus, but actually because children of God waited eagerly for him to return. For that reason it was a symbol of eagerness for the return of the holy spirit. And the fact that Jesus was a symbol who never existed and didn't get hurt it was different. Also Jesus overturned the tables in the synagogue and judas threw the 30 pieces of silver on the floor in disgust at the feet of those who he betrayed Jesus to. And Judas was called Judas son of Simon and Iscariot would refer to Elisha the follower of Elijah. This is from 2 Kings 2;

Elisha said, “Please let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.�

10 So he said, “You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so.� 11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried out, “My father, my father, the chariot of Israel and its horsemen!� So he saw him no more. And he took hold of his own clothes and tore them into two pieces. 13 He also took up the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, and went back and stood by the bank of the Jordan. 14 Then he took the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, and struck the water, and said, “Where is the Lord God of Elijah?� And when he also had struck the water, it was divided this way and that; and Elisha crossed over.
So Elijah's spirit actually rested on Elijah and Elisha called him father. And he took his mantle or his 'job, family blessing since I think Elijah had no children'. And Iscariot is very likely a play on words Ish is man and cariot would be chariot. But after Judas' suicide Simon Peter built the church apparently and his spirit lived on. So it seems the NT was an attempt to say the sons of God would be given a spirit when the last one had come to him which would trigger the apocalypse. The problem is according to the OT God walked and talked with them but they rejected him. And there is no repentance because in theory the spirit of god knows once a person tries to fight with him there is no forgiveness. No one could ever repent of that, and the desire to get a new spirit is blasphemy and no one is a spirit but god. So the garden of Eden I think is everything outside of the atmosphere (or possibly inside, the first people may have been awestruck by the darkness and stars. But I think the tree of life may have been stars etc and the flaming sword circling blocking the way was the sun. Also the garden of eden may be blocked because of beliefs. Venus, the closest planet, is 25 million miles away. So if Jesus was real where did he go? The only god would be so so far away, and to think all this "everything" was probably created in an instant and will be destroyed in an instant.

[bluethread]

The god that Abraham heard telling him to kill was the same one that told him to write the Bible, . . . .

Adonai did not command Avraham to write HaTorah, or any other part of the Scriptures. I am not sure what point you are trying to make and the rest of your lengthy post does not really clear things up.

[myth-one.com]

Before anyone answers your question, they should have the facts about what really occurred that day on the mountain in Moriah:

God, Abraham, and probably even Isaac knew that no harm would befall Isaac on that day.

1. This does NOT address the question: Was it right to order the murder of Isaac. It addresses a scenario that may or may not have followed.

But God did not order the murder of Isaac.

2. Facts don't come with "probably". Facts are not related to ideas in people's heads. The single fact is God ordered Abraham to kill Isaac.

That's why I said Isaac "probably" knew he was in no danger -- because I did not know that as fact.

What is a fact is that God and Abraham knew Isaac could not be killed because God said He would make an everlasting covenant with Isaac and his seed:

Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. (Genesis 17:19)

And Isaac did not marry Rebekah until he was forty years old:

And Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah to wife, the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Padanaram, the sister to Laban the Syrian.
Genesis 24:4

But allowing Isaac to be killed was am impossibility.

May I repeat - the consequences, the follow up, the actions of Abraham AFTER the command are not in question. We are examining the command: Kill your son!

Repeat it all you want.

Nonetheless, the command "Kill your son!" is irrelevant to the debate as no such command was ever given.

The outcome, Abraham's faith and your story details, are irrelevant.

Your entire thread (Was it right for God to order Abraham to kill?) is based on something which never happened!

God never ordered Abraham to kill Isaac!

As such, your entire thread is "irrelevant!"

[evilsorcerer1]

[Replying to bluethread]

I just play it safe and consider everyone evil, and if they receive punishment than I am justified. But why think someone is not evil and chance them not suffering? Besides, there are too many people playing war games on the planet not to try to blame humanity for it.

[bluethread]

[Replying to bluethread]

I just play it safe and consider everyone evil, and if they receive punishment than I am justified. But why think someone is not evil and chance them not suffering? Besides, there are too many people playing war games on the planet not to try to blame humanity for it.

You are new to this site, so I presume you have not heard my view on the use of the word "evil" in the Scriptures. What is translated as "evil" is the term ra'. Al it means is that which is not "good"(tov), and that refers to Adonai's ways. So, in my view, when speaking in the context of the Scriptures, "evil" is that which does not conform with Adonai's ways. So, though I don't presume everyone is "evil", I understand that most people are, even some of the "nice" ones. That is does not mean most people are nefarious. It just means that they are not Adonai's people.

[marco]

But God did not order the murder of Isaac.


Nonetheless, the command "Kill your son!" is irrelevant to the debate as no such command was ever given.

God never ordered Abraham to kill Isaac!

Here is the passage: "Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.�

You are claiming God did not say this. You are saying God had other plans for Isaac. Odd. The words compelled Abraham to set out to kill his son, so Abraham certainly took these words to mean he was to kill Isaac. The unknown psychological drama enacted in his head, which you make much of, is an irrelevance. All we are considering is the rightness or wrongness of the above words.


You can claim: God didn't mean it and maybe he'd forgotten the contract he made. Or you may say that God was joking, since he and Abraham knew, so it was just a cruel trick to be played on Isaac. Or you may look at the ram and realise THAT was what God meant Abraham to sacrifice and God meant "take your son with you when you do it." The "him" was the ram and words, especially those from the sky, get clouded.


But the fact is: God told Abraham to kill Isaac. Among civilised people, this is wicked advice.