Paul, John, Jesus, and YHWH

[liamconnor]

This topic has already been broached, but I think the topic needs better phrasing.

One OP maintains that Jesus was not YHWH. But this phrasing is far too objective, asking whether or not Jesus was ontologically YHWH, and ignores the question of, right or wrong, N.T. authors still thought of him as YHWH.

So, I am not interested in whether Jesus was actually divine, signified by YHWH, Elohim, kurios, theos, zeus or whatever.

I am interested in whether certain authors of the N.T. had qualms with associating Jesus with the O.T. Hebrew term יהוה. In English this term is translated Jehovah, Yahweh, or simply YHWH. In the LXX (Greek) this term is translated Kurios. The N.T. is written in Greek. Kurios appears frequently, not infrequently in reference to Jesus.

Q4D: Do any of the N.T. authors (right or wrong) associate Jesus, via the Greek LXX, with the Hebrew יהוה?


In my estimate, yes. Both John and Paul associate Jesus with the Hebrew יהוה. They both assign Jesus the Greek term Kurios in contexts unambiguously hearkening back to the Hebrew יהוה.

Please note, all arguments phrased "Jesus is not YHWH" are irrelevant to this OP. The only appropriate objection would be "No N.T. author thought Jesus was YHWH".

I fear I will have to bring this up again and again, but fingers crossed.

[Elijah John]

I think John with his prologue and the "I AM statements equates Jesus with YHVH God. Paul, comes close but does not go quite that far. But functionally, Paul has Christ as God, even if he were to insist that only the Father is God. ("I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me", etc, etc.)

But even John is contradictory on the matter, in 17.3 he has Jesus clearly identifying the Father alone as the "only true God".

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]

Please note, all arguments phrased "Jesus is not YHWH" are irrelevant to this OP. The only appropriate objection would be "No N.T. author thought Jesus was YHWH".

I fear I will have to bring this up again and again, but fingers crossed.

We cannot be absolutely certain either way, as the Name is deliberately absent from the NT.

We can, however draw conclusions based on what they did write and quote.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]

Please note, all arguments phrased "Jesus is not YHWH" are irrelevant to this OP. The only appropriate objection would be "No N.T. author thought Jesus was YHWH".

I fear I will have to bring this up again and again, but fingers crossed.

We cannot be absolutely certain either way, as the Name is deliberately absent from the NT.

We can, however draw conclusions based on what they did write and quote.

Then draw some conclusions CP.

My conclusion is that Paul most certainly identified Jesus with O.T. YHWH passages. I really don't think this is as tentative as you, for Paul quotes YHWH passages and places Jesus in them.

In other words, Paul reads passages of the O.T. in which the term YHWH looms large, whether Greek or Hebrew, and sees Jesus in the term.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 4 by liamconnor]



"In other words, Paul reads passages of the O.T. in which the term YHWH looms large, whether Greek or Hebrew, and sees Jesus in the term."

We can not assume what Paul thought only what he left behind
what we have in NT.
That he would see Jesus in OT would not be surprising from what he learned and experienced. Still, we have more information than what he had. We have more dots to connect. Greeks were aware of the name YAWH and if it was appropriate to use the same they would have.
Jesus Christ was both human and divine.
YAWH was divine.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]

The Greek writers never once applied the Hebrew term יהוה YHWH ( Jehovah, Yahweh) to Jesus, there is not one verse where Jesus is explicitly called Jehovah as he is many time Jesus. Neither did is Jesus ever ever reported as calling himself by this name (YHWH).

JW

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]

Please note, all arguments phrased "Jesus is not YHWH" are irrelevant to this OP. The only appropriate objection would be "No N.T. author thought Jesus was YHWH".

I fear I will have to bring this up again and again, but fingers crossed.

We cannot be absolutely certain either way, as the Name is deliberately absent from the NT.

We can, however draw conclusions based on what they did write and quote.

Then draw some conclusions CP.

My conclusion is that Paul most certainly identified Jesus with O.T. YHWH passages. I really don't think this is as tentative as you, for Paul quotes YHWH passages and places Jesus in them.

In other words, Paul reads passages of the O.T. in which the term YHWH looms large, whether Greek or Hebrew, and sees Jesus in the term.

Please give specific examples of that, then.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]

The Greek writers never once applied the Hebrew term יהוה YHWH ( Jehovah, Yahweh) to Jesus, there is not one verse where Jesus is explicitly called Jehovah as he is many time Jesus. Neither did is Jesus ever ever reported as calling himself by this name (YHWH).

JW

The Greek writers of the NT hardly (if ever, depending on what translation one uses) employed the name "YHVH" at all. Even in those passages where the OT was quoted.

(I know, I know, the NWT is an exception to this rule)

Even the ASV, which Witnesses used to use, does not use the Tetragrammaton in the New Testament.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]

The Greek writers never once applied the Hebrew term יהוה YHWH ( Jehovah, Yahweh) to Jesus, there is not one verse where Jesus is explicitly called Jehovah as he is many time Jesus. Neither did is Jesus ever ever reported as calling himself by this name (YHWH).

JW

The Greek writers of the NT hardly (if ever, depending on what translation one uses) employed the name "YHVH" at all. Even in those passages where the OT was quoted.

(I know, I know, the NWT is an exception to this rule)

Even the ASV, which Witnesses used to use, does not use the Tetragrammaton in the New Testament.

I was not refering to translations (modern or otherwise) if you look back I said the (Christian) Greek writers. To have a good idea of what they wrote one would have of course to study the early copies in the original language. Not simply take 30 seconds to look up modern day translations on google. As much as that level of inquiry may be considered exhaustive in this forum to the complete satisfaction of "google" and "wiki" experts everywhere, it will probably not be considered substantial enough to make definitive comments on the subject to those that have dug deeper.


JW


Is there evidence that the early Christians writers employed the Divine Name (YHWH)?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 272#822272

[Monta]

[Replying to post 9 by JehovahsWitness]



:I was not refering to translations (modern or otherwise) if you look back I said the (Christian) Greek writers. To have a good idea of what they wrote one would have of course to study the early copies in the original language. Not simply take 30 seconds to look up modern day translations on google. As much as that level of inquiry may be considered exhaustive in this forum to the complete satisfaction of "google" and "wiki" experts everywhere, it will probably not be considered substantial enough to make definitive comments on the subject to those that have dug deeper."



200 BC: Completion of the Septuagint Greek Manuscripts which contain The 39 Old Testament Books AND 14 Apocrypha Books.

1st Century AD: Completion of All Original Greek Manuscripts which make up The 27 Books of the New Testament.

1611 AD: The King James Bible Printed; Originally with All 80 Books. The Apocrypha was Officially Removed in 1885 Leaving Only 66 Books.

After that there are countless translations. I am sure there will be one gender neutral.