Paul, John, Jesus, and YHWH

[liamconnor]

This topic has already been broached, but I think the topic needs better phrasing.

One OP maintains that Jesus was not YHWH. But this phrasing is far too objective, asking whether or not Jesus was ontologically YHWH, and ignores the question of, right or wrong, N.T. authors still thought of him as YHWH.

So, I am not interested in whether Jesus was actually divine, signified by YHWH, Elohim, kurios, theos, zeus or whatever.

I am interested in whether certain authors of the N.T. had qualms with associating Jesus with the O.T. Hebrew term יהוה. In English this term is translated Jehovah, Yahweh, or simply YHWH. In the LXX (Greek) this term is translated Kurios. The N.T. is written in Greek. Kurios appears frequently, not infrequently in reference to Jesus.

Q4D: Do any of the N.T. authors (right or wrong) associate Jesus, via the Greek LXX, with the Hebrew יהוה?


In my estimate, yes. Both John and Paul associate Jesus with the Hebrew יהוה. They both assign Jesus the Greek term Kurios in contexts unambiguously hearkening back to the Hebrew יהוה.

Please note, all arguments phrased "Jesus is not YHWH" are irrelevant to this OP. The only appropriate objection would be "No N.T. author thought Jesus was YHWH".

I fear I will have to bring this up again and again, but fingers crossed.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 4 by liamconnor]



"In other words, Paul reads passages of the O.T. in which the term YHWH looms large, whether Greek or Hebrew, and sees Jesus in the term."

We can not assume what Paul thought only what he left behind
what we have in NT.
That he would see Jesus in OT would not be surprising from what he learned and experienced. Still, we have more information than what he had. We have more dots to connect. Greeks were aware of the name YAWH and if it was appropriate to use the same they would have.
Jesus Christ was both human and divine.
YAWH was divine.

The Greeks DID use God's name (YHWH) in the N.T. writings. It was TAKEN OUT of the N.T. by clerics and scribes some time in the 2nd or 3rd centuries and substituted with "Adonai."

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]

The Greek writers never once applied the Hebrew term יהוה YHWH ( Jehovah, Yahweh) to Jesus, there is not one verse where Jesus is explicitly called Jehovah as he is many time Jesus. Neither did is Jesus ever ever reported as calling himself by this name (YHWH).

JW

The Greek writers of the NT hardly (if ever, depending on what translation one uses) employed the name "YHVH" at all. Even in those passages where the OT was quoted.

(I know, I know, the NWT is an exception to this rule)

Even the ASV, which Witnesses used to use, does not use the Tetragrammaton in the New Testament.

It should show you something that the N.T. does not contain the Tetragrammaton where it is used in the O.T. and is being quoted in the N.T. You know for a certain that "YHWH" is used in the O.T. Why would it be absent from the N.T.? Is it not reasonable that we should deduce that someone has TAKEN IT OUT OF the N.T. writings?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 9 by JehovahsWitness]

JW, let me ask you this. Romans 10.13 in the American Standard Version reads:

Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Did Paul mean by "the Lord", the LORD YHVH, or the Lord Christ?

According to the original Greek, that is.

My point in all this is wondering why JWs put so much stock in Paul when instead of repeatedly proclaiming "YHVH", he proclaims "Christ" over and over and over again.

Or as Thomas Paine critiques Christianity, "instead of God, a man is preached".

Seems to apply specifically to Paul and the Pauline emphasis.

Romans 10:13 is quoting from Joel 2:32 where Jehovah's name appears (YHWH). Paul does not think that it refers to Jesus. I'm sure he originally wrote "For 'everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved,'" and would not be referring to Jesus.

You have not taken seriously all the posts I and others have written to answer your objections. Otherwise you would not be declaring the same things continuously. I even counted up, at one time a few months ago, all the times that Paul referred to the Father and also God, and those references added up to MANY MORE times that he mentioned Jesus or Christ. But you continue to say that "Paul, instead of repeatedly proclaiming 'YHVH,' he proclaims 'Christ' over and over again." Why don't YOU count up the number of times that he mentions each if you don't take me seriously?

.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 32 by onewithhim]


"It should show you something that the N.T. does not contain the Tetragrammaton where it is used in the O.T. and is being quoted in the N.T. You know for a certain that "YHWH" is used in the O.T. Why would it be absent from the N.T.? Is it not reasonable that we should deduce that someone has TAKEN IT OUT OF the N.T. writings?"

It would not make theological sense if it did.
God of the OT spoke through prophets but He never came to earth (in OT).
In the NT He actually descended and took on the human essence.
By using one and the same name we wouldn't know who we are talking about.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 32 by onewithhim]


"It should show you something that the N.T. does not contain the Tetragrammaton where it is used in the O.T. and is being quoted in the N.T. You know for a certain that "YHWH" is used in the O.T. Why would it be absent from the N.T.? Is it not reasonable that we should deduce that someone has TAKEN IT OUT OF the N.T. writings?"

It would not make theological sense if it did.
God of the OT spoke through prophets but He never came to earth (in OT).
In the NT He actually descended and took on the human essence.
By using one and the same name we wouldn't know who we are talking about.

It makes sense, period. The N.T. QUOTES the O.T. where Jehovah's name is included. New Testament clerics and scribes chose to LEAVE OUT the Divine Name and substitute "Adonai" instead. It once existed in N.T. writings, but 3rd century copyists took it out. It can't be said any clearer than that.

"Theological sense" is non-existent in your thinking. Jehovah didn't come to earth in the N.T. either! How could God be on earth and pray to God? Think what you will, but Jesus did not play games and pray to himself. God stayed in heaven while His Son came to the earth. (John 1:1 has been explained enough times, that you'd think you could explain it to your clergyman so he would see the truth of the matter.)

You are correct that we don't know who we are talking about when we call both the Father and Son "God" or even YHWH. You realize this and yet still say that God and Jesus are one and the same. Can you straighten that out?

[Benoni]

[Replying to post 35 by onewithhim]

You JW abuse the name of Jehovah because you place it everywhere in the Bible especially where it does not belong. It is so bad that when ever I see this name it turns my stomach because it is a lie.

2Th 2:11
(ALT) And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie,
(ASV) And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie:
(CEV) So God will make sure that they are fooled into believing a lie.
(CLV) And therefore God will be sending them an operation of deception, for them to believe the falsehood,
(DRB)(2:10) Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:
(EMTV) And because of this, God will send them strong delusion, in order for them to believe the lie,
(ESV) Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
(Geneva) And therefore God shall send them strong delusion, that they should beleave lies,
(GNB) And so God sends the power of error to work in them so that they believe what is false.
(GW) That's why God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie.
(ISV) For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.

[Wootah]

You have not taken seriously all the posts I and others have written to answer your objections. Otherwise you would not be declaring the same things continuously. I even counted up, at one time a few months ago, all the times that Paul referred to the Father and also God, and those references added up to MANY MORE times that he mentioned Jesus or Christ. But you continue to say that "Paul, instead of repeatedly proclaiming 'YHVH,' he proclaims 'Christ' over and over again." Why don't YOU count up the number of times that he mentions each if you don't take me seriously?

.

Moderator Comment
Hi onewithhim

I'd suggest you let go of expecting previous posts to justify current answers. You are not required to answer any posts at all but in general each thread and each question does not require an appreciation of previous content.

Please review the Rules.


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