Did Jesus proclaim that he was raised from the dead?

[paarsurrey1]

Did Jesus proclaim that he was raised from the dead?

This claim was invented by Paul and the Church. Jesus never made this wrong claim . Did he, please?
Regards

__________
Reference : Post 64 "Jesus was not a Christian "

[tam]

[Replying to post 87 by JerryMyers]

Peace to you all,

I need to share something from my Lord, something He reminded me of the other morning, before responding to post 87.

**

Both the disciple my Lord loved and His own mother stood there by the cross in front of the man who was crucified. (John 19:25-27) You, Jerry, are stating that these two did not realize that the man before them on the cross was not Christ. You are stating that the disciple my Lord loved did not realize that the man on the cross was not his Lord, and Mary did not realize that the man on the cross was not her son.

Well...

It is one thing to claim that the disciple my Lord loved, as well as His own mother, could not recognize Him by His appearance. It is quite another thing to state that the disciple my Lord loved, and His own mother, could not know Him by His appearance... OR... by HIS VOICE.


Not just because of how unlikely it would be for two people (one being the mother of the man) to fail to realize that they were looking at and listening to a stranger. But because of what Christ, Himself, earlier said: that HIS SHEEP know HIS voice and so they follow Him, but that His sheep would RUN from the voice of a stranger.


“Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.� John 10:1-4



My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. John 10:27



The disciple Christ loved is one of His sheep. He would not have mistaken the voice of a stranger for the voice of his Shepherd.




May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, and may anyone who thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"



Peace again to you all, and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[marco]

You are stating that the disciple my Lord loved did not realize that the man on the cross was not his Lord, and Mary did not realize that the man on the cross was not her son.

Well Tam to be fair it is Allah who is saying this. Logical and reasonable defence is useless if the maker of the universe, the all knowing and all merciful states that Christ wasn't crucified. It has the strength of a Euclidean proposition - for some.

[JerryMyers]

Peace to you all,

I need to share something from my Lord, something He reminded me of the other morning, before responding to post 87.

**

Both the disciple my Lord loved and His own mother stood there by the cross in front of the man who was crucified. (John 19:25-27) You, Jerry, are stating that these two did not realize that the man before them on the cross was not Christ. You are stating that the disciple my Lord loved did not realize that the man on the cross was not his Lord, and Mary did not realize that the man on the cross was not her son.

Well...
It is one thing to claim that the disciple my Lord loved, as well as His own mother, could not recognize Him by His appearance. It is quite another thing to state that the disciple my Lord loved, and His own mother, could not know Him by His appearance... OR... by HIS VOICE.

Not just because of how unlikely it would be for two people (one being the mother of the man) to fail to realize that they were looking at and listening to a stranger. But because of what Christ, Himself, earlier said: that HIS SHEEP know HIS voice and so they follow Him, but that His sheep would RUN from the voice of a stranger.

“Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.� John 10:1-4

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. John 10:27

The disciple Christ loved is one of His sheep. He would not have mistaken the voice of a stranger for the voice of his Shepherd.

May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, and may anyone who thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"

Peace again to you all, and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Peace to you and your loved ones too, Tam.

In the contexts of John 10:1-4 and John 10:27, the terms ‘listen to my voice’, ‘they know his voice’ are references to Jesus’ teachings and NOT a literal reference to his voice.

So, in John 10:1-4, Jesus was saying, he's like a shepherd (who guides his sheep) and his disciples are like the sheep (as sheep instinctly, will follow the instructions of the shepherd). In other words, those who knew the truth of his teachings follow him and they will never follow the teaching of others as they will know (and should know) the differences. Similarly, in John 10:27, Jesus is saying his true disciples will listen to his teaching, he knew them (that is, the true disciples) and they follow him.

It is quite another thing to state that the disciple my Lord loved, and His own mother, could not know Him by His appearance... OR... by HIS VOICE.

Not just because of how unlikely it would be for two people (one being the mother of the man) to fail to realize that they were looking at and listening to a stranger. But because of what Christ, Himself, earlier said: that HIS SHEEP know HIS voice and so they follow Him, but that His sheep would RUN from the voice of a stranger.

Well…so, they believed it was ‘Jesus’ on the cross BECAUSE it was made to appear so unto them - as prophesized in Psalms 22.

Peace.

[marco]

Well…so, they believed it was ‘Jesus’ on the cross BECAUSE it was made to appear so unto them - as prophesized in Psalms 22.

Well if it is "because" of Psalm 22 then we can dismiss it. We are told:

"But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people."

Jesus had a large following, as instanced by the feeding of the multitude. SOME people disliked him but not everyone obviously, else Christianity would not have happened. So the claim gets no verification from the psalm. As one would expect!

Before we leap to the magical we should accept the obvious first.

[JerryMyers]

Well if it is "because" of Psalm 22 then we can dismiss it. We are told:

"But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people."

Jesus had a large following, as instanced by the feeding of the multitude. SOME people disliked him but not everyone obviously, else Christianity would not have happened. So the claim gets no verification from the psalm. As one would expect!

Before we leap to the magical we should accept the obvious first.

Again, against my better judgment, I am responding to you lest you continue to make a mockery of yourself. Please, do not take that as an attack on your personal character or intelligence but take that as an advice to improve your knowledge. So, here we go :

Well, you are right, we should accept the obvious first.. and the obvious is that Psalm 22 is a vision, a prophesy, and therefore, the sayings are symbolic and not to be taken in its literal meaning. So, verses like “Many bulls surround me�, “Roaring lions that tear their prey open their mouths wide against me� and the likes that you find in Psalm 22, do NOT mean that Jesus will be surrounded by bulls and torn apart by lions BUT they are symbolic references to the enemies of Jesus. Similarly, “But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by everyone, despised by the people� does not mean Jesus is a worm and not a man BUT it’s a symbolic reference to how the Jews of his time will treat him that is, he will be treated like a worm scorned and despised by many.

I can understand that lately, you need to respond to every post of mine and because of that, I felt bad for not returning you the same honour of responding to every post of yours too - as I have told you before, I don’t see a need to respond to every posts of yours especially when they offer nothing but just a lack of basic understanding of the way holy scriptures (of any faith) are written.

So, feel free to respond to every post of mine but, just remember, I don’t need to respond to you, NOT because I cannot BUT because I DON’T HAVE TO. As the sayings goes, "A lion do not have to respond to the barks of a dog". Again, please do not take that literally as you did of Psalm 22 verses.

[Elijah John]

Well, you are right, we should accept the obvious first.. and the obvious is that Psalm 22 is a vision, a prophesy, and therefore, the sayings are symbolic and not to be taken in its literal meaning. So, verses like “Many bulls surround me�, “Roaring lions that tear their prey open their mouths wide against me� and the likes that you find in Psalm 22, do NOT mean that Jesus will be surrounded by bulls and torn apart by lions BUT they are symbolic references to the enemies of Jesus. Similarly, “But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by everyone, despised by the people� does not mean Jesus is a worm and not a man BUT it’s a symbolic reference to how the Jews of his time will treat him that is, he will be treated like a worm scorned and despised by many.

Just because something is metaphorical or symbolic, does not make it necessarily prophetic. Apologists have latched on to this, and applied it to Jesus.

Even if Jesus did quote it in his agony, he was probably simply praying, seeking comfort as many of us do in the Psalms.

There is no evidence that the Psalm is prophetic. Psalms are songs and prayers, not prophecy. Where is the "thus saith the LORD"?

And the "bulls and lions" are most probably referring to the Psalmist's (King David's?) enemies, not Jesus'.

[paarsurrey1]

Well if it is "because" of Psalm 22 then we can dismiss it. We are told:

"But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people."

Jesus had a large following, as instanced by the feeding of the multitude. SOME people disliked him but not everyone obviously, else Christianity would not have happened. So the claim gets no verification from the psalm. As one would expect!

Before we leap to the magical we should accept the obvious first.

Again, against my better judgment, I am responding to you lest you continue to make a mockery of yourself. Please, do not take that as an attack on your personal character or intelligence but take that as an advice to improve your knowledge. So, here we go :

Well, you are right, we should accept the obvious first.. and the obvious is that Psalm 22 is a vision, a prophesy, and therefore, the sayings are symbolic and not to be taken in its literal meaning. So, verses like “Many bulls surround me�, “Roaring lions that tear their prey open their mouths wide against me� and the likes that you find in Psalm 22, do NOT mean that Jesus will be surrounded by bulls and torn apart by lions BUT they are symbolic references to the enemies of Jesus. Similarly, “But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by everyone, despised by the people� does not mean Jesus is a worm and not a man BUT it’s a symbolic reference to how the Jews of his time will treat him that is, he will be treated like a worm scorned and despised by many.

I can understand that lately, you need to respond to every post of mine and because of that, I felt bad for not returning you the same honour of responding to every post of yours too - as I have told you before, I don’t see a need to respond to every posts of yours especially when they offer nothing but just a lack of basic understanding of the way holy scriptures (of any faith) are written.

So, feel free to respond to every post of mine but, just remember, I don’t need to respond to you, NOT because I cannot BUT because I DON’T HAVE TO. As the sayings goes, "A lion do not have to respond to the barks of a dog". Again, please do not take that literally as you did of Psalm 22 verses.

BUT they are symbolic references to the enemies of Jesus.

Why fit it on Jesus only, please? Are there any specific clues in the text of the Psalm to that effect, please?

Regards

[paarsurrey1]

[Replying to post 91 by tam]

Both the disciple my Lord loved and His own mother stood there by the cross in front of the man who was crucified. (John 19:25-27) You, Jerry, are stating that these two did not realize that the man before them on the cross was not Christ. You are stating that the disciple my Lord loved did not realize that the man on the cross was not his Lord, and Mary did not realize that the man on the cross was not her son.

Both the disciple my Lord loved and His own mother

Will one please identify the persons mentioned above with names and one's clues that they were there while Matthew testifies that all the disciples of Jesus had fled away from the scene of the Cross, please?
Regards

[paarsurrey1]

[Replying to post 93 by JerryMyers]

In the contexts of John 10:1-4 and John 10:27, the terms ‘listen to my voice’, ‘they know his voice’ are references to Jesus’ teachings and NOT a literal reference to his voice.

It is a very good point.

so, they believed it was ‘Jesus’ on the cross BECAUSE it was made to appear so unto them - as prophesized in Psalms 22.

I miss finding such words in Psalms 22, please. Kindly give one's clues from the text. Right, please?
Regards

[paarsurrey1]

[Replying to post 90 by marco]

In my view, but not in your view, Jesus was a good preacher and Muhammad no more than a skilful military leader and trader. It is not good enough to say that Muhammad told you and then assume that, ipso facto, God told you. There is nothing logical or rational about believing this. It requires the SAME faith that says Jesus was crucified.

May I ask one's specific worldview if one doesn't mind, please?
If one belongs to Atheism, instead of putting Muslims against Christians or the vice versa, please give one's take on the issue. Will that not make it more meaningful and reasonable for the all three worldviews as a comparison, please?

Regards