Is forgiveness without a price a virtue?

[Justin108]

Is it a good thing to be able to forgive without any price?

If so, is God imperfect for being unable to forgive sin without Jesus' sacrifice?

[bjs]

Is it a good thing to be able to forgive without any price?

A price for whom? The one being forgiven, or the one who forgives?

There cannot be a price for the one who is forgiven. If I must pay a price to be forgiven then by definition that is not forgiveness. If someone steps no my toe and I demand to step on his toe in return before I forgive him then I am not forgiving him at all. I am taking vengeance.

There must be a price for the one who forgives. If forgiving someone costs me nothing then that person doesn’t actually need forgiveness. If someone stepped on my toe and I forgave them then I would have to suffer the cost of a hurt toe without retribution. If I suffered no cost (my toe was never stepped on), then I would have nothing to forgive.

If so, is God imperfect for being unable to forgive sin without Jesus' sacrifice?

According to orthodox Christianity, Jesus is God. His death can be viewed as the cost God paid for our forgiveness.

[Justin108]

If someone stepped on my toe and I forgave them then I would have to suffer the cost of a hurt toe without retribution. If I suffered no cost (my toe was never stepped on), then I would have nothing to forgive.

Yes and that cost was our sin, not Jesus' sacrifice. So forgiving us should be as simple as letting go of the fact that we sinned

According to orthodox Christianity, Jesus is God. His death can be viewed as the cost God paid for our forgiveness.

Who did God pay it to?

Himself?
- That would make no sense. How does one pay oneself? And why would one pay oneself in suffering?

Us?
- We never asked for Jesus' death so why would he give us something we don't want?

[oldbadger]

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

Yes!
Jews from all over Palestine, Northern Provinces, Gaulanitus, Galilee, Decapolis, Idumea, Perea, and of course Judea, trekked to Jerusalem to make sacrifice for the remission of their sins. They felt as bound to cleanse themselves thus as many women need to wash their hair .......

When they reached the outlying townships they got fleeced by the locals for each dinner and bed that they required. When they arrived at the Great Temple they got fleeced by the money-changer's exchange rates. Then they got fleeced, every many paying 7grams of pure silver head tax (Tyrian half-shekel) Then the merchants fleeced them for the price of a lamb, and the priests fleeced them for sacrificial dues....... all to feel spiritual;ly clean once more.

The whole process was just one corrupt, nasty, greedy milking process.

But there was a man who out in the wastes to the East lof the Jordan river, living as close to self-subsistence as any human can, and at one with his God. He came out of the desert to the Jordan, where the path to the south lay (clear of Samaria) and he called out to them....
...'Come to me! Come to me for immersion in the Jordan for the remission of your sins........ for nothing!'

You should read what he called those priests!


The Remission of Sins should be free, as with forgiveness of all kinds.

[OnceConvinced]

Is it a good thing to be able to forgive without any price?

Yeah sure it is. You don't have to punish everyone who does a bad thing. Even as a parent I didn't punish my kids for every single infraction. In fact often it was just a matter of sitting them down and talking to them about it. No loving parent feels the need to have to make their kid suffer over every misdeed.

No matter what the case my be, we as humans are perfectly able to forgive without the need for punishing the offender. I do it all the time. The thing is I rarely hold a grudge and soon get over the offence. Apparently many gods can't do that unless you grovel at their feet or make sacrifices to them.

If so, is God imperfect for being unable to forgive sin without Jesus' sacrifice?

Most definitely. God could choose any method he wants to, to forgive. There is scarcely a need for anyone to suffer, let alone die. Let alone an innocent man having to die.

Sometimes punishment is necessary though. People need to learn lessons in life. They need to learn that they can't get away with certain infractions. There needs to be consequences. However killing someone isn't going to help them learn anything.

[OnceConvinced]

Is it a good thing to be able to forgive without any price?

A price for whom? The one being forgiven, or the one who forgives?

There cannot be a price for the one who is forgiven. If I must pay a price to be forgiven then by definition that is not forgiveness. If someone steps no my toe and I demand to step on his toe in return before I forgive him then I am not forgiving him at all. I am taking vengeance.

There must be a price for the one who forgives. If forgiving someone costs me nothing then that person doesn’t actually need forgiveness. If someone stepped on my toe and I forgave them then I would have to suffer the cost of a hurt toe without retribution. If I suffered no cost (my toe was never stepped on), then I would have nothing to forgive.

You are completely omitting a huge part of the procedure here. Let's take it back further...

What if by committing some kind of punishable act you are required to make some kind of retribution to the one you have wronged. ie, sacrificing a lamb or other living creature? That would be the price you pay for forgiveness.

Now if someone were to come along and provide that lamb for you, then the price for your forgiveness gets paid for you. Nevertheless its still the price you have to pay for your forgiveness, whether someone else covers the cost or not.

But what if we go one step further? What if the person providing the lamb has strings attached. That you have to serve and worship the person providing the lamb for you before the forgiveness kicks in? The price becomes even greater!

Oh there is definitely a cost for forgiveness here and it's not just paid by the one doing the forgiving.

According to orthodox Christianity, Jesus is God. His death can be viewed as the cost God paid for our forgiveness.

The cost that God put on himself? Why would it be necessary for a god to put a cost on himself before he can forgive you? Do we as parents put a cost on our forgiveness of our wayward children? Or do we forgive without having to pay any cost?

[Youkilledkenny]

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

Is it a good thing to be able to forgive without any price?

Unless you're talking about a business transaction I wouldn't see why it wouldn't be a good thing. Although, good is a very relative term here.

[1213]

Is it a good thing to be able to forgive without any price?

If so, is God imperfect for being unable to forgive sin without Jesus' sacrifice?

By what the Bible tells, it was possible to forgive sins even before the death of Jesus.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

[The Tanager]

Is it a good thing to be able to forgive without any price?

If so, is God imperfect for being unable to forgive sin without Jesus' sacrifice?

But what are (some) Christians talking about when they speak of having sins forgiven? It's not just having our slate cleaned and being allowed to start over in some detached way. There had to be a physicality to our salvation because humans are physical beings. Christianity talks about God changing human nature from the inside out with Jesus. So, Jesus' sacrifice and restoring our relationship with God (and having sins forgiven) are all the same thing.

[Justin108]

There had to be a physicality to our salvation because humans are physical beings.

But the problem wasn't a physical one, it was a spiritual(?) one. A physical solution would make sense if we were, say, physically trapped in some kind of prison. A physical salvation made sense in Exodus. But the issue of our sin is not a physical issue. And even if it were, I fail to see the connection between Jesus physically dying and our sins somehow being forgiven? It makes about as much sense as trying to cure cancer by painting pictures of horses. The solution is so far detached from the problem that I cannot fathom how the two are connected at all. The two being physical does not explain the causal link between the two. In what way does Jesus' death forgive our sins?

Christianity talks about God changing human nature from the inside out with Jesus.

This is what I meant by curing cancer by painting pictures of horses. How exactly did Jesus' death change us from the inside?