The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[Checkpoint]

The kingdom of God, maybe.

But the "kingdom of our Lord and Deliverer, Yeshua the Messiah", while eternity future, is not eternity past.

The Messianic kingdom began when Jesus became its king.

Which of the three above do you think Jesus instructed his follower to pray for when he said "Our Father in the heavens, let your kingdom come"?

I think all three are valid answers.

ok fair enough.


Can you explain this its a little confusing for me.

But the "kingdom of our Lord and Deliverer, Yeshua the Messiah", while eternity future, is not eternity past.

Confusing?

In what way?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 509 by Checkpoint]

I don't understand the expression "eternity future, is not eternity past" means and how its meaning applies to all three kingdoms you mentioned in the post above.

JW

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 509 by Checkpoint]

I don't understand the expression "eternity future, is not eternity past" means and how its meaning applies to all three kingdoms you mentioned in the post above.

JW

The kingdom of God has been from "the beginning", so can be said to be eternal [eternity past and eternity future].

The Messianic kingdom, however, arrived when its king arrived, king Jesus. It is the kingdom of God that he said was now "at hand"/"has come near".

Mark 1:

14 After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God.
15 “The time has come,� he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!�

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 511 by Checkpoint]

So the Messianic Kingdom didn't exist during the time of Abraham or Moses or King David? But God's Kingdom did?

So they are not the same thing.



JW

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 511 by Checkpoint]

So the Messianic Kingdom didn't exist during the time of Abraham or Moses or King David? But God's Kingdom did?

So they are not the same thing.



JW

What do you think?

[JehovahsWitness]

What do you think?

Well I think the Messianic Kingdom started in 1914 and is not to be confused with Jehovah's Universal Souvereignty.

I think God as the Supreme ruler of the universe always rules supreme but he has allowed Satan the devil to be "the god of this world". From the rebellion of Eden humans have (under Satan's influence) ruled independent of God but YHWH (Jehovah) fortold a time when he would appoint a king to destroy the world's governments (kill off the wicked) and establish a rule under Jesus with 144,000 co-rulers. This is the Messianic kingdom.

• - Since Jesus gets he authority from God the Messianic Kingdom can also be referred to as "God's Kingdom"; but its the same thing.
  
  - Jesus taught his followers to pray "Thy Kingdom Come" That Messianic Kingdom is what he was referring to.
  
  - Since the Jesus and his co-rulers will be ruling from heaven it can also be called "The kingdom of the heavens"
  
  - Since Jesus represents the Kingdom, when he was on earth he could say the kingdom is amongst the people of the first century.
  
  - Since the destruction of human government to be replaced by rulership by Jesus is good news we refer to "The Good News of the Kingdom"

So there are not several (or even three) different kingdoms, there is one Kingdom and the various names focus on various aspects of that kingdom.




JW

[Checkpoint]

What do you think?

Well I think the Messianic Kingdom started in 1914 and is not to be confused with Jehovah's Universal Souvereignty.

I think God as the Supreme ruler of the universe always rules supreme but he has allowed Satan the devil to be "the god of this world". From the rebellion of Eden humans have (under Satan's influence) ruled independent of God but YHWH (Jehovah) fortold a time when he would appoint a king to destroy the world's governments (kill off the wicked) and establish a rule under Jesus with 144,000 co-rulers. This is the Messianic kingdom.

• - Since Jesus gets he authority from God the Messianic Kingdom can also be referred to as "God's Kingdom"; but its the same thing.
  
  - Jesus taught his followers to pray "Thy Kingdom Come" That Messianic Kingdom is what he was referring to.
  
  - Since the Jesus and his co-rulers will be ruling from heaven it can also be called "The kingdom of the heavens"
  
  - Since Jesus represents the Kingdom, when he was on earth he could say the kingdom is amongst the people of the first century.
  
  - Since the destruction of human government to be replaced by rulership by Jesus is good news we refer to "The Good News of the Kingdom"

Thank you for that summary of current JW teaching.

I may well be challenging some of its statements in coming days.

So there are not several (or even three) different kingdoms, there is one Kingdom and the various names focus on various aspects of that kingdom.

Precisely.

One of those aspects is its future aspect, to which you often refer.

Another aspect is its present aspect, to which I often refer.

[tam]

Peace to you!

It has been a while, but I was taking a second look through this thread, and I have a question and comment:

Peace to you JW,

[Replying to post 6 by JehovahsWitness]

The King is in place now (since 1914)

I must disagree with the 1914 inference, based upon my Lord's own words. From His words, He has been "in place" for much much longer than that, considering all authority in heaven and on earth was given to Him almost two thousand years ago. (Matt 28:18)

But also from His words to John (at the time He told John to write to the seven congregations):

The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. Rev 3:21

Sat down. Past tense. He had already sat down on the throne by the time He told John to write to the seven congregations. By the time He even gave this revelation TO John.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Did you hear of Psalm 110? It says: "The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord [the Messiah] is: 'Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet'." Jesus was to wait for quite a long time before taking his throne as King....until his enemies were subdued, and I would say that that coincided with the ending of the Gentile times mentioned at Luke 21:24. According to Bible chronology, those Gentile times ended in 1914.

An understanding of that is available, if a person wants to avail him or herself of that.

How do you reconcile your post above (the bold and underlined part) with this:


For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. (1 Corinth 15:25, NWT)



He did not have to wait until His enemies were subdued before beginning to reign as King. So yes, as the Psalm states, He is sitting at the right hand of God. And it is from that position (being second only to God) that He is reigning as King in the midst of His enemies.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 516 by tam]

Revelation applies to post 1914. PRIOR to that Jesus was simply seated at Jehovah's right hand waiting to take up kingdom rule in his Father's name.



Peace to you,

JW

[tam]

Peace to you JW,

[Replying to post 517 by JehovahsWitness]



But how does your response reconcile the two conflicting statements:


"Jesus was to wait for quite a long time before taking his throne as King... until his enemies were subdued..." (from JW theology, paraphrased from the Psalm quote 'sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet)

... and...


"For he MUST rule AS king UNTIL God has put all enemies under his feet." 1 Corinth 15:25


The first JW statement insists that Christ must wait to rule as king until his enemies are subdued (until his enemies are placed under his feet; see the Psalm quote).

But the second statement from Paul insists (and clarifies) that Christ must rule as king until his enemies are subdued; exactly as the Psalm quote also states.


Yes, Christ is seated at the right hand of God, but from that position at the right hand of God, Christ rules as King, second only to God Himself. To be seated at the right hand of God MEANS to rule at the right hand of God, second only to God Himself.





Peace again to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy