The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[myth-one.com]

Perhaps "man is not directly involved with that world" because he chooses not to/deliberately resists doing so?

Perhaps, but I don't care to figure out your riddle.

But, this is not the case for all men.

Perhaps. Perhaps is a powerful word. Another way of saying nothing.

I quote snippets to support my claims. To counter my claims you need to quote snippets from the Bible which contradict my claims.

Your claims generally just contain what you personally "think". Ooh, ah! Woopty-do!

True - but not necessarily "Woopty-do".

The Bible is not exempt from "testing the spirits" and I think it is logically possible that what went into the bible [both OT and NT] are selected to favor a certain religious push toward having the average human think of themselves as only what the body produces - rather than seeing themselves as "spirit" engaging within the experience of "being human" as individual personalities who think of themselves as "Spirit" are harder to control, which is religions primary function, regardless of what religion is the main one of the culture one is brought up within.

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

Since God created man with no preeminence over a dog, I'll get my dogs working on the solution to that problem asap.

[William]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #1401]

As can be seen, by the quotes used, the author of Ecclesiastes appears to be inclined toward the belief in materialism.

However, it may be just a case of quote-mining in order that an impression favoring your argument as to what happens to the human personality is given.

Also from Ecclesiastes
“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”

Again, interpretations of Bible script is not exempt from being questioned that the spirits might be tested. Your belief that one's personality also turns into dust, is arguably incorrect.

Obviously differing interpretations of biblical script leading to intransigent positions, cannot be so easily explained by simply saying that scripture is "sealed from our understanding".

Not that I am saying it is not sealed from your understanding, but your position on the matter is not everyone's.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #1401]

As can be seen, by the quotes used, the author of Ecclesiastes appears to be inclined toward the belief in materialism.

However, it may be just a case of quote-mining in order that an impression favoring your argument as to what happens to the human personality is given.

Also from Ecclesiastes
“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”

Again, interpretations of Bible script is not exempt from being questioned that the spirits might be tested. Your belief that one's personality also turns into dust, is arguably incorrect.

Obviously differing interpretations of biblical script leading to intransigent positions, cannot be so easily explained by simply saying that scripture is "sealed from our understanding".

Not that I am saying it is not sealed from your understanding, but your position on the matter is not everyone's.

What returns to God when any man dies their first "death" is a history of that person's life, which is "written in books."

Nonbelievers will be judged from these "books" after they are resurrected:

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books,

<=======================================>

Since God created man with no preeminence over a dog, I'll get my dogs working on the solution to that problem asap.

Their initial response is that they have someone in the physical world which is higher than them. They look to me for their shelter, food, medical help, life or death, etc. They don't worry about where they came from.

On the other hand, man is reportedly at the top of the physical food chain and has no one to look to above. It bothers man that he cannot definitely define his own existence -- especially his non-physical attributes. His thoughts, emotions, loves, etc.

Thus, man historical worshiped something they did not understand which gave them continued life such as the sun, the moon, fire, or a river. As they came to understand these things, the associated God was no longer needed.

Thus, as knowledge increases, the number of specific gods should decrease.

But will man ever know every possible thing? Probably not.

Thus, the number of gods should approach one all-knowing God with one all-encompassing Kingdom of God.

[William]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #1403]

As can be seen, by the quotes used, the author of Ecclesiastes appears to be inclined toward the belief in materialism.

However, it may be just a case of quote-mining in order that an impression favoring your argument as to what happens to the human personality is given.

Also from Ecclesiastes
“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”

Again, interpretations of Bible script is not exempt from being questioned that the spirits might be tested. Your belief that one's personality also turns into dust, is arguably incorrect.

Obviously differing interpretations of biblical script leading to intransigent positions, cannot be so easily explained by simply saying that scripture is "sealed from our understanding".

Not that I am saying it is not sealed from your understanding, but your position on the matter is not everyone's.

What returns to God when any man dies their first "death" is a history of that person's life, which is "written in books."

Nonbelievers will be judged from these "books" after they are resurrected:

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books,

That too is simply belief based upon how humans do things - and as you say;

It bothers man that he cannot definitely define his own existence -- especially his non-physical attributes. His thoughts, emotions, loves, etc.

and this bothering is why the book - Revelations - was written in the style that it was - as the author was ignorant of many things which we are not, and reported what was experienced by using words and concepts based upon the authors beliefs and knowledge gained in the epoch the author lived through.

It is the same in the case of Jesus in the desert, which I mentioned in an earlier post;

What each individual experiences and how they interpret the experience of their visions/alternate experiences, is subject to that individuals belief system, attitude, expectations et al.

According to non biblical sources, the stories of what folk tell re their visions/alternate experiences shows us that it is more than simply a "record of ones life" which "goes back to YHVH" [enters the realm of Spirit] but the very essence of the individual personality which continues to experience being alive - living - although it may well also be the case that not everyone gets to continue on in that manner, and simply remain dead, because YHVH is the GOD of The Living, not the dead.

Perhaps that was what Jesus meant in saying "One must be born again - this time of the Spirit." Those who are not, do not.

The idea that folk will be resurrected from the dead and made alive only to be judged unworthy and made to be dead again, is questionable, as there seems to be no logical reason for doing things that way. If YHVH has no use for the individual personality, then it can remain dead forever.
That is why I think it more likely that such beliefs about how things are done, depend upon the personalities overall attitude, and those who desire that type of outcome, are likely to receive it for themselves, rather than have their expectation fulfilled that it will be others who receive it.

Those dead can stay dead.

On the other hand, man is reportedly at the top of the physical food chain and has no one to look to above. It bothers man that he cannot definitely define his own existence -- especially his non-physical attributes. His thoughts, emotions, loves, etc.

It is not impossible for the individual personality to definitely define his/her own existence and know their self, including thoughts, emotions, loves etc.
If some are 'bothered' by this, because they can't seem to do so, perhaps they need to rethink their beliefs and adjust as necessary.

If one's interpretations of biblical stories is unable to assist them in that, perhaps too - their interpretations require adjustment.

But thinking that scripture somehow gives one 'life', is likely just one more form of idolatry.

Best take care what one idolizes...perhaps opting for not idolizing anything is the wiser choice...

[2ndpillar2]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

Your version from Luke 16:16 seems more than a bit off, and you should probably add the next sentence Luke 16:17. Maybe you should read Mt 11:12, were it reads "violet men take it by force". The "kingdom" whereas the Jews were looking for "David" to be their king/prince/shepherd (Ez 34:23-24 & Ez 37:24), is set for when the house of Judah and Ephraim will be united on the land given to Jacob/Israel "forever" (Ez 37:28). That happens after the nations/Gentiles are "crushed" at the same time before the kingdom is set up "forever" (Daniel 2:44-45).

[myth-one.com]

The idea that folk will be resurrected from the dead and made alive only to be judged unworthy and made to be dead again, is questionable, as there seems to be no logical reason for doing things that way. If YHVH has no use for the individual personality, then it can remain dead forever.

It's much worse than questionable. And you are absolutely correct that there is no logical reason to resurrect nonbelievers simply to humiliate them with judgment prior to killing them again in the lake of fire. It directly contradicts the "God is Love" theme. So that is not why nonbeliever folk are resurrected.

Billions or trillions of people have died never having the opportunity to accept Jesus as their Savior. All deceased nonbelievers are resurrected as mortals during the second resurrection and given that opportunity! The majority of all people who have ever lived have never, ever, heard the true message of the Holy Scriptures, even in the United States. Remember that the scriptures have been very successfully sealed until the end of time! At this time these people will hear the true message for the first time from angels, including Christians born again as spirits in the first resurrection, with Satan and all of his myths and lies totally defeated. Most people have never been given a choice based on Biblical truth! Their choice was based on myths and fear.

Those times will be over!

All deceased believers are resurrected to everlasting spiritual bodied life at the Second Coming. Believers who are alive at the Second Coming will be changed likewise, and meet them in the air. At that time, the Book of Life has been cleared. Every believer has received their reward or inheritance.

A thousand years later, all nonbelievers are resurrected again as mortal humans and face judgment.

Following the judgment, all whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and quickly suffer their second and everlasting death.

But why are they even checking the Book of Life again? The Book of Life was cleared at the Second Coming when all Christians (dead and alive) were granted everlasting life.

The only reason to check the book again after the judgment is that names may have been added to the book during the judgment process.

That is why they check the Book of Life again after the judgment!

The implication is that nonbelievers are resurrected as humans and preached the true good news of the scriptures and make their decision to choose everlasting life or everlasting death at that time!

That is why the Book of Life is rechecked after the judgment!

[2ndpillar2]

The idea that folk will be resurrected from the dead and made alive only to be judged unworthy and made to be dead again, is questionable, as there seems to be no logical reason for doing things that way. If YHVH has no use for the individual personality, then it can remain dead forever.

It's much worse than questionable. And you are absolutely correct that there is no logical reason to resurrect nonbelievers simply to humiliate them with judgment prior to killing them again in the lake of fire. It directly contradicts the "God is Love" theme. So that is not why nonbeliever folk are resurrected.

Billions or trillions of people have died never having the opportunity to accept Jesus as their Savior. All deceased nonbelievers are resurrected as mortals during the second resurrection and given that opportunity! The majority of all people who have ever lived have never, ever, heard the true message of the Holy Scriptures, even in the United States. Remember that the scriptures have been very successfully sealed until the end of time! At this time these people will hear the true message for the first time from angels, including Christians born again as spirits in the first resurrection, with Satan and all of his myths and lies totally defeated. Most people have never been given a choice based on Biblical truth! Their choice was based on myths and fear.

Those times will be over!

All deceased believers are resurrected to everlasting spiritual bodied life at the Second Coming. Believers who are alive at the Second Coming will be changed likewise, and meet them in the air. At that time, the Book of Life has been cleared. Every believer has received their reward or inheritance.

A thousand years later, all nonbelievers are resurrected again as mortal humans and face judgment.

Following the judgment, all whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and quickly suffer their second and everlasting death.

But why are they even checking the Book of Life again? The Book of Life was cleared at the Second Coming when all Christians (dead and alive) were granted everlasting life.

The only reason to check the book again after the judgment is that names may have been added to the book during the judgment process.

That is why they check the Book of Life again after the judgment!

The implication is that nonbelievers are resurrected as humans and preached the true good news of the scriptures and make their decision to choose everlasting life or everlasting death at that time!

That is why the Book of Life is rechecked after the judgment!

The "demons" believe that "God is one" (James 2:19), which is correct, yet they will "shudder", for their boss, the devil/dragon, the power behind the "beast" (Rev 13:4), will eventually find a residence in the lake of fire (Rev 20:10). Most "Christians" believe that God is three, and therefore they have the mark of the beast with two horns like a lamb (Rev 13), the Roman king Constantine, and will have to drink from the cup of God's anger (Rev 14:10). The white throne judgment, for the resurrected dead. is with respect to their "deeds", not their false beliefs, which simply led to their lawlessness, and iniquities. Stalin was raised by a Christian mother, and almost went to the seminary as a career destination, yet his beliefs, instructions, and baptism will probably not fare well with regards to his deeds. Putin, the new Czar/Stalin, also has close ties to the church and its Eastern leader. I don't think things will go well for him in the present or in the future, not because of his beliefs, but because of his deeds. As for the "kingdom of heaven" (Mt 13:47-50) "it is like a dragnet thrown into the sea" where at the "end of the age", "angels shall go forward and "take out the "wicked" from among the righteous, and " will cast them into the "furnace of fire", where there shall "be weeping and gnashing of teeth", because the "furnace of fire" is not the end, but the "anger" of God (Rev 14:10), played out as the Har-Magedon, day of judgment, whereas there will be survivors not just among the "elect" (Mt 24:22) but among the nations/Gentiles, who will go to Jerusalem every year to bow to the king (Zech 14:16), for 1000 years, and then you get the white throne judgment for the dead, for both good and bad deeds. As for an example of what the "kingdom of heaven" is, well simply read (Mt 13:47-50). It can't get simpler than that. I know that those who consider themselves wise and intelligent have not been able perceive what it is (Mt 11:25-27), but the little children can. (1 John 2:27-29)

[myth-one.com]

It can't get simpler than that.

Yes it can:

Whosoever believeth in Jesus shall have everlasting life, and those who do not believe in Jesus will suffer the second death.

[JehovahsWitness]

The idea that folk will be resurrected from the dead and made alive only to be judged unworthy and made to be dead again, is questionable, as there seems to be no logical reason for doing things that way.

WHY WILL UNRIGHTEOUS PEOPLE BE RESURRECTED?

The resurrected will not resurrection what they did before their deaths (they have paid for those sins with their death) they will be offered everlasting life or condemed to eternal death depending on the decisions they make subsequent to their resurrection.

Some will learn about Jesus and make good choices and live. Some ( despite the opportunity to learn about Jesus) will refuse to submit and will be put to death permenantly.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

LIFE, THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD and ...RESURRECTION

[2ndpillar2]

It can't get simpler than that.

Yes it can:

Whosoever believeth in Jesus shall have everlasting life, and those who do not believe in Jesus will suffer the second death.

If you "believeth" in "Jesus", then you probably should "heed" his message (Mt 7:24-27), lest one be washed away in the "flood", the coming flood which will wash away the Gentile church (adulteress of Hosea 3), built on the two shepherds of Zechariah 11:10 & 17, Peter and Paul. You might want to read all of the text (John 3:15-21). And what is his "name" (John 3:18) per Revelation 19:13? John 11:25: "I am the resurrection, and the life; he who believes in me shall live even if he dies". To be resurrected one must first die, and according to the "Word of God" (Rev 19:13), Jeremiah 31:30, "everyone shall die for their own iniquities", which is to say, "everyone will die", which is contrary to the testimony of the false prophet Paul and the "serpent"/devil (Genesis 3:4) To be "resurrected", per Revelation 20:4, one must not have received the "mark" of the beast, which is prevalent among the "Gentile" churches, daughters of Babylon (Rev 17:5), who sits on the "beast" (which includes the Roman empire) (Rev 17:3). Everyone suffers the first death. Even Elijah, John the Baptist, eventually had his head cut off. The "second death" comes after the white throne judgment (Rev 20:15).