The kingdom of God.

Checkpoint · Post by **Checkpoint** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:40 am

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:39 pm

[Replying to post 229 by JehovahsWitness]

Please don't dodge the issue. Your own portrayal of God makes him look either mean spirited, incompetent or impotent.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:44 pm

[Replying to post 230 by McCulloch]

No I don't believe providing an everlasting paradise earth for all who want it, and perfect health as well as promising to resurrect (bring back to life on earth) their dead loved ones in perfect health so they can live and love them again is... "mean spirited" "incompetent" or "impotent" at all.

.... but if YOU believe that is the picture of "mean spiritedness" by all means, please do continue in that belief.

JW

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Checkpoint · Post by **Checkpoint** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:51 pm

[Replying to post 222 by JehovahsWitness]

I think you misunderstand that the bible deals with two seperate (but related things)
Quote:

#1 God's universal sovereignty: God's position and power as KING and Supreme ruler of all creation; something that has always been and always will be and...

#2 The Messianic kingdom : The government that will be on the shoulders of the "Prince of Peace" (see the word "government" in Isaiah 6:9), the subject of numerous "messianic" prophecies, which has not always existed but began at a specific moment in time (which we both agree on - see above) and for which Jesus told his disciples to pray.

From what I can see, where you go wrong is a is being unable to see theses two seperate things thus your attempt to combine all statements to do with divine rulership into the Messieanic kingdom

I understand what you are saying and appreciate how clearly you have presented your view.

However, I think it is you who have misunderstood my position.

I emphasised there is only one kingdom, which I now see you call Universal Sovereignty , and added that what you term the Messianic kingdom began at a specific time and was "of a different nature".

What we do not agree on is when it began and what the difference is.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:07 pm

[Replying to post 232 by Checkpoint]

Okay we refer to Jehovah's Universal sovereignty.. what do YOU call it?

We call it the (Messianic) Kingdom* what do YOU call it?

and more importantly, before you read my post, did you distinguish between the two things and if so how ie on what basis?

* Often JWs will just refer to "The Kingdom" or "God's Kingdom" but it is understood that we are indeed refering to the Messianic kingdom

Checkpoint · Post by **Checkpoint** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:29 pm

[Replying to post 222 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes God has "always been on His throne" this is reference to his unversal sovereinty, and position as supreme ruler of the unverses.

God's universal sovereignty: God's position and power as KING and Supreme ruler of all creation; something that has always been and always will be

Are you therefore saying that as king and supreme ruler God is headihg His kingdom,
His government?

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:31 pm

McCulloch wrote:It seems to me that you blaspheme your God with your doctrine. According to you, He could usher in a wonderful paradise, but he won't. He didn't in the first or second century. He didn't in the twentieth century. He has the power to make things so much better, but he doesn't. Do you not see what kind of a sociopathic sadist you make your God out to be? How many generations have to pass from the prophetic date before you realize that you are waiting for nought?

You claim they are wrong about the prophecy as it demeans GOD but then you claim that proves the prophecy is wrong??? Is that not a non-sequitur?

I see the timetable for the end to be the redemption of the last hold out sinful elect and there is a lot said to go on before then.

No new outcasts are created while HE waits.
No people live in extra suffering while we wait, only the suffering their sin has earned.
How does HIM not returning quickly upset anything? If HE is patient with HIS sinful elect to not overwhelm them with guilt, so what?

HE has the power to end all suffering instantly by a judgement day but the judgement MUST CONTINUE TO BE POSTPONED as long as one elect person is still sinful or they will be condemned with the tares which HE has promised would never happen.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:40 pm

Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 222 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes God has "always been on His throne" this is reference to his unversal sovereinty, and position as supreme ruler of the unverses.

God's universal sovereignty: God's position and power as KING and Supreme ruler of all creation; something that has always been and always will be
Are you therefore saying that as king and supreme ruler God is headihg His kingdom, His government?

Read over what I said earlier

#1 God's universal sovereignty: God's position and power as KING and Supreme ruler of all creation; something that has always been and always will be and...

#2 The Messianic kingdom : The government that will be on the shoulders of the "Prince of Peace" (see the word "government" in Isaiah 6:9), the subject of numerous "messianic" prophecies, which has not always existed but began at a specific moment in time (which we both agree on - see above) and for which Jesus told his disciples to pray.

ISAIAH 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

I'm interested how you would answer the questions you asked; in other words what is the RIGHT answer to your question? I'll tell you if I agree with your correct understanding if you could just explain what the correct understand is.

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:47 pm

McCulloch wrote: So, according to you God could usher in a wonderful paradise, but he still has not done so. Why the delay?

The kingdom was filled with HIS elect before the foundation of the world. Those of HIS kingdom who chose to rebel against the judgement day against the Satanists were sown into the world to live with the reprobate tares, Matt 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom.

This forced the postponement of the judgement day until the last sinful person of the kingdom, aka sinful good (elect) seed, repents, fully ushering in the judgment of those NOT of HIS kingdom but of the evil one.

The problem is NOT that the kingdom has not been established which was finished before the foundation of the world but that some of the kingdom members chose to be sinful in HIS sight and fouled things up, forcing HIM to delay the judgment Matt 13:28-30 until it can be fulfilled without HIM breaking HIS promise and election and salvation to those HE chose to be in HIS kingdom.

Checkpoint · Post by **Checkpoint** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:08 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 232 by Checkpoint]

Okay we refer to Jehovah's Universal sovereignty.. what do YOU call it?

We call it the (Messianic) Kingdom* what do YOU call it?

and more importantly, before you read my post, did you distinguish between the two things and if so how ie on what basis?

* Often JWs will just refer to "The Kingdom" or "God's Kingdom" but it is understood that we are indeed refering to the Messianic kingdom

It was not until after I started this thread that I realised it is accurate to say the kingdom of God, as such, has always been.

I just used "kingdom of God", as the NT usually does and the OT does not, for the Messianic kingdom.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:30 pm

Checkpoint wrote:
It was not until after I started this thread that I realised it is accurate to say the kingdom of God, as such, has always been.

I just used "kingdom of God", as the NT usually does and the OT does not, for the Messianic kingdom.

But did you have a concept of a kingdom that was seperate from what you say "has always been"?

ie

1) Always been

2) Not always been

both different. Even if you didn't have words for the concept did you have a #1 and a separate #2

JW