The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[Checkpoint]

It was not until after I started this thread that I realised it is accurate to say the kingdom of God, as such, has always been.

I just used "kingdom of God", as the NT usually does and the OT does not, for the Messianic kingdom.

But did you have a concept of a kingdom that was seperate from what you say "has always been"?

ie

1) Always been

2) Not always been

both different. Even if you didn't have words for the concept did you have a #1 and a separate #2



JW

I don't know what you are asking, can you put in a different way?

Does it really have any relevance what my past concepts were, anyway?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 222 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes God has "always been on His throne" this is reference to his unversal sovereinty, and position as supreme ruler of the unverses.

God's universal sovereignty: God's position and power as KING and Supreme ruler of all creation; something that has always been and always will be

Are you therefore saying that as king and supreme ruler God is headihg His kingdom, His government?

Read over what I said earlier

#1 God's universal sovereignty: God's position and power as KING and Supreme ruler of all creation; something that has always been and always will be and...

#2 The Messianic kingdom : The government that will be on the shoulders of the "Prince of Peace" (see the word "government" in Isaiah 6:9), the subject of numerous "messianic" prophecies, which has not always existed but began at a specific moment in time (which we both agree on - see above) and for which Jesus told his disciples to pray.

ISAIAH 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

I'm interested how you would answer the questions you asked; in other words what is the RIGHT answer to your question? I'll tell you if I agree with your correct understanding if you could just explain what the correct understand is.

Sorry JW, but I am not going down that road.

We work the other way around with questions and answers.

The one that asks the question is first answered by the one being asked, and then agrees or disagrees or discusses.

So, please answer my question!

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 241 by Checkpoint]

Fair enough. God has appointed Jesus as the head of the Messianic Kingdom government. (Since Jesus always acts in harmony with God's will we can legitimately refer to the government as His (God's) kingdom), but no the head or desginated leader or KING of the kingdom is Jesus.

I emphasised there is only one kingdom, which I now see you call Universal Sovereignty

No you have misunderstood; we don't call the Kingdom God's souvereignty. God's kingdom (that Jesus told us to pray for is an expression of God souvereignty but God's Kingdom is NOT God's souvereignty.

To illustrate the different between "an expression of something" and the thing itself, let's take a mother's love. A mother will love here children from even before they are born. She may cook a cake to nourish and please here children but the love is not the cake. The cake is different from her love, the cake is "an expression" of her love, but she may also express or manifest her love in different ways at different times. Still her love and the cake are not the same thing; her love is not a cake.

God has always and will always rule the universe He became the KING of the universe when he created it. That's one thing; the way he chooses to "express"
his position or kingship is different from his actual kingship; just as the mother expresses her love through giving a cake. The cake hasn't always existed but her love for her children has. Her love is not a cake. God's souvereignty is not the kingdom. We are talking about two things not one. We are talking about two things, not one thing with two different names.

When God created the unviverse there was no Messianic Kingdom (The Messianic Kingdom, is the kingdom (a type of government) that Jesus told us to pray for). The Messianic Kingdom government has NOT existed from the beginning of time; there was no need for the kingdom (I'll used the word government from Isaiah 9:6 to be clear), there was no need for the government.The governement hadn't been set up. The government has not always existed.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

I don't know what you are asking, can you put in a different way?

Do you now agree that the kingdom (government) that Jesus taught his followers to pray for did NOT exist from the beginning of time?

Do you agree that if the Kingdom (government) was set up in the Roman era it cannot be the same thing as God's souvereignty which predated existed from the beginning of time (and didn't start during the Roman era)?

Do you agree if that if we have one thing that started at the beginning of time and another during the Roman era we are talking about two different things?

If not, why not?




JW

[myth-one.com]

God has appointed Jesus as the head of the Messianic Kingdom government. (Since Jesus always acts in harmony with God's will we can legitimately refer to the government as His (God's) kingdom), but no the head or desginated leader or KING of the kingdom is Jesus.

quote=""]

I don't know what you are asking, can you put in a different way?

Do you agree that the kingdom (government) that Jesus taught his followers to pray for did NOT exist from the beginning of time?

[/quote]

[McCulloch]

[Replying to post 230 by McCulloch]

No I don't believe providing an everlasting paradise earth for all who want it, and perfect health as well as promising to resurrect (bring back to life on earth) their dead loved ones in perfect health so they can live and love them again is... "mean spirited" "incompetent" or "impotent" at all.

.... but if YOU believe that is the picture of "mean spiritedness" by all means, please do continue in that belief.

You miss the point entirely. God has not actually provided an everlasting paradise earth for all who want it, and perfect health. God has made repeated promises to make things better for humanity. But, so far, God has not delivered nor had God shown the capacity to fulfill such promises. Why would a good God withhold paradise for so long?

[Monta]

[Replying to post 242 by JehovahsWitness]


"When God created the unviverse there was no Messianic Kingdom (The Messianic Kingdom, is the kingdom (a type of government) that Jesus told us to pray for). The Messianic Kingdom government has NOT existed from the beginning of time; there was no need for the kingdom (I'll used the word government from Isaiah 9:6 to be clear), there was no need for the government.The governement hadn't been set up. The government has not always existed."

It took me while to realize that when JW talk of God's Kingdom, they are talking of God Jehovah' kingdom. Goof topic for Judaism forum.

When Christians talk about Kingdom they talk of Jesus Christ and his Kingdom.

[JehovahsWitness]

It took me while to realize that when JW talk of God's Kingdom, they are talking of God Jehovah' kingdom. [...] When Christians talk about Kingdom they talk of Jesus Christ and his Kingdom.

Yes the only true Christians on earth are indeed talking about Jesus kingdom, given to him by his Father JEHOVAH. We refer to this as God's (Jehovah/YHWH) Kingdom because Christ has been gived it from God and he acts on his father's behalf. It is also refered to in scripture as "the kingdom of heaven" "the government" and we also refer to it as the "Messianic kingdom" (Jesus being the Messiah). It is for this kingdom Jesus Christ taught his followers to pray "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name*, Thy (Your) Kingdom come".

So that is the kingdom Christians are talking about. I don't know what kingdom YOU are talking about though, perhaps you can elaborate.


JW


*The name of the Father of Jesus and us all is Jehovah (Yahweh in Hebrew: YHWH)

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 246 by JehovahsWitness]

the only true Christians on earth are

Who really knows?

Only God and His Christ.

Each of us will find out at the final judgment.

Let's be done with any such claims or assumptions, please.

1 Corinthians 4:

1 This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found faithful.

3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself.
4 For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.

5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

[tam]

Peace to you!

We really are not going to have to guess about Christ's return or the establishment of His Kingdom upon the earth. The only reason people 'guess' about it now, is because He has not yet returned, but some mistakenly believe He did, or that He should have, and so they have to come up with such things as an 'invisible' return.

At least Harold Camping repented and withdrew that claim before he died. Others continue to teach it, rather than admit or see that they (or their leaders) were wrong.


But we will all see Him when He returns. There will be no guesswork, there will be no question. No one will have to go around telling others who can't see for themselves that He has returned (just invisibly). Every eye will see Him.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy