Did Paul base creeds on “mystery� or blind-faith?

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paarsurrey1
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Did Paul base creeds on “mystery� or blind-faith?

Post #1

Post by paarsurrey1 »

Did Paul base creeds on “mystery� to make Christianity a blind-faith?

But Jesus believed with reason.
Paul, for his own suitability, wanted that people should inculcate blind-faith in them instead of reason and Revelation from God, to bring them under his control.
The truthful Religion has got nothing to do with blind-faith, please.
Regards

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Re: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery� or blind-faith?

Post #2

Post by Checkpoint »

paarsurrey1 wrote: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery� to make Christianity a blind-faith?

But Jesus believed with reason.
Paul, for his own suitability, wanted that people should inculcate blind-faith in them instead of reason and Revelation from God, to bring them under his control.
The truthful Religion has got nothing to do with blind-faith, please.
Regards
Please explain what you mean by "blind faith".

"Jesus believed with reason"? And Paul didn't?

Please give examples of each.

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Re: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery� or blind-faith?

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Post by 2timothy316 »

Checkpoint wrote:
paarsurrey1 wrote: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery� to make Christianity a blind-faith?

But Jesus believed with reason.
Paul, for his own suitability, wanted that people should inculcate blind-faith in them instead of reason and Revelation from God, to bring them under his control.
The truthful Religion has got nothing to do with blind-faith, please.
Regards
Please explain what you mean by "blind faith".

"Jesus believed with reason"? And Paul didn't?

Please give examples of each.
In accord with CP questions. What is 'blind faith' and is 'seeing faith'?

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Re: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery� or blind-faith?

Post #4

Post by onewithhim »

paarsurrey1 wrote: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery� to make Christianity a blind-faith?

But Jesus believed with reason.
Paul, for his own suitability, wanted that people should inculcate blind-faith in them instead of reason and Revelation from God, to bring them under his control.
The truthful Religion has got nothing to do with blind-faith, please.
Regards
No, Paul did not base anything on "mystery" and did not espouse blind faith. I see Paul as being very reasonable, and he had no interest in "bringing anyone under his control." I agree that true Religion is not about blind faith. There are real, true things that are the basis for faith.

"Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." (Hebrews 11:1)

It is evident that all things were created by Someone or some Intelligence. As verse 3 goes on to say: "By faith we perceive that the systems of things were put in order by God's word, so that what is beheld has come to be out of things that do not appear."

Reason is involved, is it not? Paul never encouraged blind faith.

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Re: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery� or blind-faith?

Post #5

Post by Elijah John »

onewithhim wrote:
paarsurrey1 wrote: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery� to make Christianity a blind-faith?

But Jesus believed with reason.
Paul, for his own suitability, wanted that people should inculcate blind-faith in them instead of reason and Revelation from God, to bring them under his control.
The truthful Religion has got nothing to do with blind-faith, please.
Regards
No, Paul did not base anything on "mystery" and did not espouse blind faith. I see Paul as being very reasonable, and he had no interest in "bringing anyone under his control." I agree that true Religion is not about blind faith. There are real, true things that are the basis for faith.

"Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." (Hebrews 11:1)

It is evident that all things were created by Someone or some Intelligence. As verse 3 goes on to say: "By faith we perceive that the systems of things were put in order by God's word, so that what is beheld has come to be out of things that do not appear."

Reason is involved, is it not? Paul never encouraged blind faith.
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved"
Since only Paul and a very few others actually saw the "Risen Christ", how is that not blind faith?

And how is expecting others who have not encountered the Risen Christ (in a vision or otherwise) to embrace that belief, reasonable?

Is it reasonable that Paul added conditions to salvation, beyond what Jesus himself taught?

Ironic that Paul condemns some for preaching a "different Gospel" when it is Paul himself who preached a different Gospel.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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onewithhim
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Re: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery� or blind-faith?

Post #6

Post by onewithhim »

Elijah John wrote:
onewithhim wrote:
paarsurrey1 wrote: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery� to make Christianity a blind-faith?

But Jesus believed with reason.
Paul, for his own suitability, wanted that people should inculcate blind-faith in them instead of reason and Revelation from God, to bring them under his control.
The truthful Religion has got nothing to do with blind-faith, please.
Regards
No, Paul did not base anything on "mystery" and did not espouse blind faith. I see Paul as being very reasonable, and he had no interest in "bringing anyone under his control." I agree that true Religion is not about blind faith. There are real, true things that are the basis for faith.

"Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." (Hebrews 11:1)

It is evident that all things were created by Someone or some Intelligence. As verse 3 goes on to say: "By faith we perceive that the systems of things were put in order by God's word, so that what is beheld has come to be out of things that do not appear."

Reason is involved, is it not? Paul never encouraged blind faith.
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved"
Since only Paul and a very few others actually saw the "Risen Christ", how is that not blind faith?

And how is expecting others who have not encountered the Risen Christ (in a vision or otherwise) to embrace that belief, reasonable?

Is it reasonable that Paul added conditions to salvation, beyond what Jesus himself taught?

Ironic that Paul condemns some for preaching a "different Gospel" when it is Paul himself who preached a different Gospel.
First of all, many disciples saw the risen Christ. Mary Magdelene was the first, then all 11 of the faithful Apostles, of course including John and Peter. Then 500 or so other disciples, including those that met an unrecognizable Jesus on the road to Emmaus. (Luke 24:13-35)

Jesus' disciples all believed fervently that he came back to life, and their enthusiastic witness about it convinced others. Why would James and Peter go so willingly to their torturous deaths if they didn't really believe that Jesus had risen? And they believed it because they saw him, though he didn't look the same. They eventually were convinced by what he said to them, and also the fact that he went through locked doors, and they witnessed him ascending into the sky.

I don't know what conditions that Paul added for salvation that Jesus hadn't already set forth. (This conversation is like deja voux. I seem to have said these same things before.) Jesus explicitly said that people must "believe on him" (John 3:16). To me that means we must believe that he was who he said he was---God's Son and the Messiah---and that he died for the salvation of mankind, thus fulfilling the Law.

"Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many." (Matt.20:28, NASB)


I don't see that Paul preached a different gospel. Supporting my view, author Paul Barnett writes in The Birth of Christianity/ The First Twenty Years, that Paul associated closely with the Apostles James, Peter and John, and that they recognized that God had entrusted him with the "gospel for the uncircumcision." (The Gentiles.) "Paul implies that they confirmed the legitimacy of that 'apostolate' to the Gentiles in parallel with Peter's 'apostolate' to the Jews' (Galatians 2:7-9). According to Paul, they had declared that he had 'not been running in vain' (Galatians 2:2), that is, his christology was consistent with theirs." (Pg.49.)

"This is confirmed in the preformed tradition Paul 'received' that he quotes in I Corinthians 15:1-3. That tradition lists those to whom the risen Lord 'appeared,' including Cephas [Peter], the Twelve, and James (15:5-7). These men preach the same gospel as Paul himself (15:11). Paul is implying that the Christ-tradition he 'received' and 'preaches' was formulated originally by the Apostles before him.." (Ibid.)


:yes:

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Re: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery� or blind-faith?

Post #7

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 5 by Elijah John]

Since only Paul and a very few others actually saw the "Risen Christ", how is that not blind faith?

And how is expecting others who have not encountered the Risen Christ (in a vision or otherwise) to embrace that belief, reasonable?
What you call "blind faith" that is therefore not "reasonable" is what Jesus said was something "blessed".
John 20:29

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed".
Is it reasonable that Paul added conditions to salvation, beyond what Jesus himself taught?

Ironic that Paul condemns some for preaching a "different Gospel" when it is Paul himself who preached a different Gospel.
If anything is unreasonable, it is these claims you continually make about Paul.

Solid evidence is lacking.

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Re: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery� or blind-faith?

Post #8

Post by Elijah John »

Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 5 by Elijah John]

Since only Paul and a very few others actually saw the "Risen Christ", how is that not blind faith?

And how is expecting others who have not encountered the Risen Christ (in a vision or otherwise) to embrace that belief, reasonable?
What you call "blind faith" that is therefore not "reasonable" is what Jesus said was something "blessed".
John 20:29

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed".
Is it reasonable that Paul added conditions to salvation, beyond what Jesus himself taught?

Ironic that Paul condemns some for preaching a "different Gospel" when it is Paul himself who preached a different Gospel.
If anything is unreasonable, it is these claims you continually make about Paul.

Solid evidence is lacking.
What claims about Paul am I making? That he added conditions for salvation ? Well here's the evidence: "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

That is an added condition. If not, where did Jesus himself preach that one must believe he was to rise from the dead, in order to be saved?

It was Paul himself who preached a "different Gospel".

Please demonstrate that my critique of Paul is "unreasonable" instead of simply making the charge.

Again, that is an easy condition for Paul to make for salvation, (believing in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead), as he had the advantage of encountering the "Risen Christ" in a vision. Most of us have not been so fortunate.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery� or blind-faith?

Post #9

Post by Monta »

[Replying to post 8 by Elijah John]


"Again, that is an easy condition for Paul to make for salvation, (believing in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead), as he had the advantage of encountering the "Risen Christ" in a vision. Most of us have not been so fortunate."

I am here now and I believe it.
It is not just one sentence but the whole NT tells the same story.

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Re: Did Paul base creeds on “mystery� or blind-faith?

Post #10

Post by Elijah John »

Monta wrote: [Replying to post 8 by Elijah John]


"Again, that is an easy condition for Paul to make for salvation, (believing in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead), as he had the advantage of encountering the "Risen Christ" in a vision. Most of us have not been so fortunate."

I am here now and I believe it.
It is not just one sentence but the whole NT tells the same story.
Where in any of the Gospels is "believing in your heart that God raised him from the dead" stated as a condition for salvation?

Where did Jesus teach this?

If you cannot produce even one verse, then yes, Paul has added a condition for salvation and preached a "different Gospel".

Could it be that Pauline believers do not care what Jesus actually taught about God and salvation, but only what Paul taught about Jesus' death and resurrection?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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