Jesus just a mere mortal: Failed prophecy!

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Jesus just a mere mortal: Failed prophecy!

Post #1

Post by alexxcJRO »

Mark 8:38, 9:1
“ 38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.�

9 And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.�

Matthew 16:27-28
"27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.�

Luke 9:26-27
“26 Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
27 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.� “

Christ predicted his second coming would occur during the lives of the people he spoke too.

Q: Did Jesus come in his Father’s glory with his holy angels during the lifetimes of the people he spoke too?
A: No.

Q: Did the Kingdom of God/Heaven come to power during the lifetimes of the people he spoke too?
A: No.

Q: Did the Final Judgment happened and every person got rewarded according to their deeds during the lifetimes of the people he spoke too?
A: Clearly, no.

Even one of the most famous Christian apologist C.S. Lewis admits Jesus knew no more about the end of the world then any other mere mortal.
"…he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else."
—C. S. Lewis, The World’s Last Night and Other Essays (New York: Harcourt Brace & Company, 1973), 98. (Post-conversion)

https://archive.org/stream/worldslastni ... p_djvu.txt

Q: How can one still maintain belief in Jesus being the perfect son of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God in face of such clear evidence of the opposite? :-s :shock: :?
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Re: Jesus just a mere mortal: Failed prophecy!

Post #2

Post by 1213 »

alexxcJRO wrote:… “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.� “
Luke 9:26-27
If you would have read the whole scripture, you would have noticed, that came true after about 8 days, if we believe what the Bible tells.

It happened about eight days after these sayings, that he took with him Peter, John, and James, and went up onto the mountain to pray. As he was praying, the appearance of his face was altered, and his clothing became white and dazzling. Behold, two men were talking with him, who were Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory, and spoke of his departure, [Literally, "exodus"] which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, but when they were fully awake, they saw his glory, and the two men who stood with him.
Luke 9:28-32
alexxcJRO wrote:Q: Did Jesus come in his Father’s glory with his holy angels during the lifetimes of the people he spoke too?
A: No.
I don’t know has that happened yet, Bible doesn’t say so. That didn’t have to happen yet.
alexxcJRO wrote:Q: Did the Kingdom of God/Heaven come to power during the lifetimes of the people he spoke too?
A: No.
Yes, it did, as Jesus said, in those who received his words.

Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, then my servants would fight, that I wouldn't be delivered to the Jews. But now my kingdom is not from here."
John 18:36

Jesus answered him, "Most assuredly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God! That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7

"The Kingdom of God doesn't come with observation; neither will they say, 'Look, here!' or, 'Look, there!' for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you."
Luke 17:20-21
alexxcJRO wrote:Q: Did the Final Judgment happened and every person got rewarded according to their deeds during the lifetimes of the people he spoke too?
A: Clearly, no.
I was not there, so I don’t know what happened, except what the Bible tells. But Bible says:

He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:18-21

If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.
John 12:47-48

The judgment is already given. At the moment, you have still time to have mercy on that. The end day is a different thing and Jesus didn’t say when it will happen.
alexxcJRO wrote:Q: How can one still maintain belief in Jesus being the perfect son of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God in face of such clear evidence of the opposite? :-s :shock: :?
Jesus says God is greater than him and there is only one true God. So, belief that Jesus is the one and only true God doesn’t seem to be Biblical, even without you erroneous claims.

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

…the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

Jesus was not wrong in anything, unless you ignore most of what he says and don’t understand what he says.

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Re: Jesus just a mere mortal: Failed prophecy!

Post #3

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 2 by 1213]

He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. This is the judgment,

If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world,

He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. This is the judgment,

If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world,

He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. This is the judgment,

If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world,

......
There's something wrong there, but I just can't put my finger on it. 1213, care to lend a hand?
Yes, it did, as Jesus said, in those who received his words.
So basically, it's something that we cannot verify as having taken place in our world. It's a prophecy about some other-worldly dimension that we cannot hope to access, cannot verify is even there, but you assure us that this prophecy did come true nonetheless.
I was not there, so I don’t know what happened, except what the Bible tells. But Bible says:
And we don't know that the people who wrote the Bible were there, or the people who spoke to the people who wrote the Bible were there.
Jesus says God is greater than him and there is only one true God. So, belief that Jesus is the one and only true God doesn’t seem to be Biblical, even without you erroneous claims.
Alex didn't say Jesus is the 'one and only true God'. He said How can one still maintain belief in Jesus being the perfect son of
Jesus was not wrong in anything
So Person X is never wrong, and if ever Person Y disagrees with that statement...it's Person Y who doesn't understand.
You yourself don't believe Muslims when they say Muhammed was never wrong, that you don't understand what Muhammed says.
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Re: Jesus just a mere mortal: Failed prophecy!

Post #4

Post by Mithrae »

alexxcJRO wrote:Matthew 16:27-28
"27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.�

Luke 9:26-27
“26 Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
27 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.� “
As always, it's important to look at context before leaping to conclusions about each individual author's meaning. It's more or less universally recognized both by early church tradition and by modern scholars that the gospels of Luke and John were written later than those by Mark and Matthew; and on this subject of Jesus' return, the fourth gospel is conspicuously silent. Only it's 'appendix' even hints at the matter, and then only to carefully downplay the earlier expectations about "some standing here" and try to pass it off as some kind of misunderstanding (John 21:20-24).

Luke/Acts offers several hints suggesting that the author was familiar with the work of Josephus - at least Jewish War (written c.76CE) if not Jewish Antiquities (written c.94CE). So as one of the later gospel writers, is there any reason to assume that Luke thought Jesus would return within his followers' lifetimes; or could he, like the author/s of John, have considered it increasingly improbable and hence downplayed the concept?

His gospel pretty clearly suggests the latter: In their apocalypses Mark and Matthew both refer to an 'abomination of desolation' in the temple (Mk 13:40, Mt. 24:15), a reference to the prophecies of Daniel signifying the final 'seven' of the long countdown before God's final judgement (Daniel 9 and 11). However Luke conspicuously omits that explicitly-eschatological phrase, instead substituting it with "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" and - most tellingly - inserting an indefinite "times of the Gentiles" between that siege and the actual end of the age:
  • Luke 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Any Christian or Jew who lived at the time would surely have assumed that the Jewish revolt and eventual destruction of the temple must somehow have been a fulfillment of prophecy; but as the years passed it would have become increasingly obvious that it was not that final 'seven' of Daniel's prediction. Luke pretty clearly indicates that perspective in the changes made to this passage.

By contrast, of all the gospels Matthew most clearly emphasises an expectation that Jesus' return was imminent: He not only keeps the 'abomination of desolation' in the apocalypse but adds an explicit comment pointing his readers towards Daniel; he changes "kingdom of God present with power" (Mark) into "Son of Man coming in his kingdom"; and he adds a brand new comment, not found in any other gospel, declaring that "you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes" (Mt. 10:23). On this basis I think it's probable that Matthew must have written around 70-75CE, at a time when the eschatological expectations raised by the revolt were still strong. (Other thematic elements in the gospel suggest it may have been at least a couple of years after 70CE.)

So if Luke didn't particularly expect Jesus' imminent return, why did he keep the verse which you've quoted above? Quite simply, he didn't view the 'kingdom of God' the way in which you are choosing to interpret it. This is put very plainly in one of his stories:
  • Luke 17:20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.â€�
Extending his story with Acts, it seems clear that in Luke's opinion the "kingdom of God present with power" occurred on the Pentecost after Jesus' death. [Edit: The view mentioned by 1213 that Luke considered it fulfilled in the transfiguration is also potentially viable; the next verse does begin by saying "Now it came to pass about eight days after these sayings..." after all :lol: ] He still expected that one day Jesus would return and right all wrongs of course, but in Luke's opinion that's not what the verse you have quoted is about.

- 'Matthew' believed that Jesus certainly would return within his disciples' lifetimes
- Luke and John seemingly did not share that belief, or at least carefully downplayed it in their gospels
- So what did Mark believe? And what did Jesus himself believe?

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Re: Jesus just a mere mortal: Failed prophecy!

Post #5

Post by alexxcJRO »

1213 wrote: If you would have read the whole scripture, you would have noticed, that came true after about 8 days, if we believe what the Bible tells.

It happened about eight days after these sayings, that he took with him Peter, John, and James, and went up onto the mountain to pray. As he was praying, the appearance of his face was altered, and his clothing became white and dazzling. Behold, two men were talking with him, who were Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory, and spoke of his departure, [Literally, "exodus"] which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, but when they were fully awake, they saw his glory, and the two men who stood with him.
Luke 9:28-32

I don’t know has that happened yet, Bible doesn’t say so. That didn’t have to happen yet.


Firstly,
You said:
“that came true after about 8 days, if we believe what the Bible tells.�

Then you said this:
“I don’t know has that happened yet, Bible doesn’t say so. That didn’t have to happen yet. “

Either Jesus came in his Father’s glory with his holy angels or he did not.
You are contradicting yourself in the same post saying two mutually exclusive things happened.
But that is logically impossible.

Secondly,
Moses and Elijah are not angels. They are supposedly the spirits of some dead humans.

1213 wrote:

Yes, it did, as Jesus said, in those who received his words.

Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, then my servants would fight, that I wouldn't be delivered to the Jews. But now my kingdom is not from here."
John 18:36

Jesus answered him, "Most assuredly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God! That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7

"The Kingdom of God doesn't come with observation; neither will they say, 'Look, here!' or, 'Look, there!' for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you."
Luke 17:20-21

But Jesus talks about future events, about his future second return. Therefore the Kingdom of God he mentions has not came into power yet, like in past tense but will come in power in the future.

1213 wrote: I was not there, so I don’t know what happened, except what the Bible tells. But Bible says:

He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:18-21

If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.
John 12:47-48

The judgment is already given. At the moment, you have still time to have mercy on that. The end day is a different thing and Jesus didn’t say when it will happen.

Again you talk about past events(has been judged already) but Jesus talk about future events:
“then he will reward each person according to what they have done.�

Also one of the verse you supply talks about future judgment:
“The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day. “

1213 wrote: Jesus says God is greater than him and there is only one true God. So, belief that Jesus is the one and only true God doesn’t seem to be Biblical, even without you erroneous claims.

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

…the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28
I don’t know what Bible are you reading but here some verses that disagree with you:

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.� Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?� The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.�

Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,� says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.�

Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ
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Re: Jesus just a mere mortal: Failed prophecy!

Post #6

Post by alexxcJRO »

Mithrae wrote:
alexxcJRO wrote:Matthew 16:27-28
"27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.�

Luke 9:26-27
“26 Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
27 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.� “
As always, it's important to look at context before leaping to conclusions about each individual author's meaning. It's more or less universally recognized both by early church tradition and by modern scholars that the gospels of Luke and John were written later than those by Mark and Matthew; and on this subject of Jesus' return, the fourth gospel is conspicuously silent. Only it's 'appendix' even hints at the matter, and then only to carefully downplay the earlier expectations about "some standing here" and try to pass it off as some kind of misunderstanding (John 21:20-24).

Luke/Acts offers several hints suggesting that the author was familiar with the work of Josephus - at least Jewish War (written c.76CE) if not Jewish Antiquities (written c.94CE). So as one of the later gospel writers, is there any reason to assume that Luke thought Jesus would return within his followers' lifetimes; or could he, like the author/s of John, have considered it increasingly improbable and hence downplayed the concept?

His gospel pretty clearly suggests the latter: In their apocalypses Mark and Matthew both refer to an 'abomination of desolation' in the temple (Mk 13:40, Mt. 24:15), a reference to the prophecies of Daniel signifying the final 'seven' of the long countdown before God's final judgement (Daniel 9 and 11). However Luke conspicuously omits that explicitly-eschatological phrase, instead substituting it with "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" and - most tellingly - inserting an indefinite "times of the Gentiles" between that siege and the actual end of the age:
  • Luke 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Any Christian or Jew who lived at the time would surely have assumed that the Jewish revolt and eventual destruction of the temple must somehow have been a fulfillment of prophecy; but as the years passed it would have become increasingly obvious that it was not that final 'seven' of Daniel's prediction. Luke pretty clearly indicates that perspective in the changes made to this passage.

By contrast, of all the gospels Matthew most clearly emphasises an expectation that Jesus' return was imminent: He not only keeps the 'abomination of desolation' in the apocalypse but adds an explicit comment pointing his readers towards Daniel; he changes "kingdom of God present with power" (Mark) into "Son of Man coming in his kingdom"; and he adds a brand new comment, not found in any other gospel, declaring that "you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes" (Mt. 10:23). On this basis I think it's probable that Matthew must have written around 70-75CE, at a time when the eschatological expectations raised by the revolt were still strong. (Other thematic elements in the gospel suggest it may have been at least a couple of years after 70CE.)

So if Luke didn't particularly expect Jesus' imminent return, why did he keep the verse which you've quoted above? Quite simply, he didn't view the 'kingdom of God' the way in which you are choosing to interpret it. This is put very plainly in one of his stories:
  • Luke 17:20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.â€�
Extending his story with Acts, it seems clear that in Luke's opinion the "kingdom of God present with power" occurred on the Pentecost after Jesus' death. [Edit: The view mentioned by 1213 that Luke considered it fulfilled in the transfiguration is also potentially viable; the next verse does begin by saying "Now it came to pass about eight days after these sayings..." after all :lol: ] He still expected that one day Jesus would return and right all wrongs of course, but in Luke's opinion that's not what the verse you have quoted is about.

- 'Matthew' believed that Jesus certainly would return within his disciples' lifetimes
- Luke and John seemingly did not share that belief, or at least carefully downplayed it in their gospels
- So what did Mark believe? And what did Jesus himself believe?

I didn't understood everything.

Q: Can you make your point more clearly, more simply and with fewer words?
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Post #7

Post by bjs »

If find the choice to quote Lewis in this case… interesting. In context, the quotation from Lewis was an intentional straw man. Lewis was describing a false attack someone might bring against Christianity, not something which he considered to be an accurate understanding of Jesus’ words.

Lewis then went on to write in some detail about the nature of the incarnation and how Jesus could profess ignorance while claiming to be God. Anyone who is interested accuracy can follow the link in the opening post to discover the point Lewis was actually making.

The short answer is that in the context of the Gospels Jesus explicitly stated that he was ignorant of when this age would end. Such statements, coming within fourteen words of claims made in the opening post, make it impossible to reasonably hold Jesus was claiming to know when the world would end. There are a few other options as to what event Jesus was referring to – some have already be mentioned – but interpreting his words about “Kingdom of God coming with power� as a reference to the end of the world is implausible.

Ultimately, I think Lewis was correct in The World’s Last Night when he wrote that these difficulties are “to a certain extent, debating points. They tend rather to strengthen a disbelief already based on other grounds than to create disbelief by their own force.�
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo

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Re: Jesus just a mere mortal: Failed prophecy!

Post #8

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 1 by alexxcJRO]

The very next part of the Bible is the transfiguration that only some saw. It's no accident.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Jesus just a mere mortal: Failed prophecy!

Post #9

Post by dio9 »

[Replying to post 1 by alexxcJRO]

when Jesus spoke these words he wasn't expecting to be betrayed and crucified. Ya see Jesus didn't expect to be crucified . Jesus expected to be accepted. However far fetched, he expected the Pharisees at least to supporter his ministry. He knew he would have trouble overthrowing the Priests but he hoped for the best, and trusted in God. Did God fail Jesus? Or how powerful is the devil in this world as to have killed Jesus. If there are any who say God killed Jesus , they are mistaken. The devil killed him as surly as he killed Adam.

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Re: Jesus just a mere mortal: Failed prophecy!

Post #10

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to dio9]

Of course Jesus knew he was the passover lamb. Re: the last supper and other times he said 'the son of man must die'.

But Christians agree that God will win and turn the ultimate evil doers acts into good. More fool the devil.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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