Individual absolute morality

[Willum]

In a discussion with JP Cusick about the eating of the "apple*," (whatever it actually was), we arrived at an interesting revelation:

Where he made a point about all of us having a corrupted sense of morality, as opposed to an absolute sense of morality given to us by eating the apple.

This is very profound. It says we can't really judge because we don't have the right sense OF right and wrong.

But this to has an interesting corollary. If we do something that we don't believe is a sin - because we can't judge - but it actually is a sin, we condemn ourselves to eternity, and we won't even know what we did.

So if we don't have the absolute morality, the knowledge

"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

as forum-Christians claim, and can't judge God, then we have a corrupted morality, and can not judge when we are doing evil.

Does this make going to heaven a function of luck? Just what are the implications?**



* = I use the "the apple" to summarize the story, not as a magical fruit, unless you want to assume it is a magical fruit - it is not relevant to the post.
** = Aside from the obvious that the contradictions means fallacy.

[Aetixintro]

[Replying to post 1 by Willum]

Never am I going to believe that torture against children is somehow "morally unknown" when everything in my body says it's utterly WRONG!

One should know ethics and morality by both mind/reason and feelings. Heck, even the Worldchamp of chess, Magnus Carlsen (Norway), says he relies on feelings to the situation at the chessboard, generated by his genius and years of (hard?) practice and playing!

[Willum]

[Replying to post 2 by Aetixintro]

Ah, so what about the not so obvious calls.
You know, the ones that might get you in trouble?

You are so wise to call the Sun bright, but what about the Moon?
Is slavery wrong? Will you go to Hell for it?

So anyone, even Popes owning slaves are going to Hell?
But the Popes of the past understood the Bible better than you...

and then, what if you study the wrong thing?

[Divine Insight]

Christians who claim that humans cannot understand or judge what is "Good" are openly proclaiming that they have no clue what constitutes "Good", therefore they cannot even claim that there God is "Good" because according to their own position they are incapable of understanding what is or is not "Good".

In short, the moment Christians claim that they can't judge what's good they have openly confessed that they are in no position to comment on issues of ethics or morality. And their entire religion becomes a position of absolute ignorance of moral values by their own admission.

[JP Cusick]

It says we can't really judge because we don't have the right sense OF right and wrong.

What I say is that "right and wrong" are very different from "good and bad" because right and wrong are concerned with actions while "good and bad" are judging the quality, and thereby God teaches us to distinguish between right and wrong, but we do not have the accurate ability to decide anything as good or as bad.

The so called original sin of Adam and Eve was to eat the poisoned knowledge of good and bad, and it remained as poisoned knowledge ever after, and it is still poison to this day.

[Realworldjack]

Christians who claim that humans cannot understand or judge what is "Good" are openly proclaiming that they have no clue what constitutes "Good", therefore they cannot even claim that there God is "Good" because according to their own position they are incapable of understanding what is or is not "Good".

In short, the moment Christians claim that they can't judge what's good they have openly confessed that they are in no position to comment on issues of ethics or morality. And their entire religion becomes a position of absolute ignorance of moral values by their own admission.

In short, the moment Christians claim that they can't judge what's good they have openly confessed that they are a position of absolute ignorance of moral values by their own admission. And their entire religion becomes a position of absolute ignorance of moral values by their own admission.

Before we begin to talk about the Christian being in, "a position of absolute ignorance of moral values by their own admission", are you claiming to be in the position of knowing exactly what morality is, and can explain to us what morality would be, where you obtain this information, and how we all can confirm that what you claim about morality is true?

It is my position, that even if I could determine what morality would be, I could never live up to this morality, no matter what it may be. So, are you claiming to know exactly what morality would be, and are you actually living up to this morality that you have figured out?

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to post 1 by Willum]

Never am I going to believe that torture against children is somehow "morally unknown" when everything in my body says it's utterly WRONG!

One should know ethics and morality by both mind/reason and feelings. Heck, even the Worldchamp of chess, Magnus Carlsen (Norway), says he relies on feelings to the situation at the chessboard, generated by his genius and years of (hard?) practice and playing!

Never am I going to believe that torture against children is somehow "morally unknown"

Are you suggesting here that there is a morality that can be known by us all?

when everything in my body says it's utterly WRONG!

Are we to all go on how we feel? What happens when we may feel differently about certain things?

One should know ethics and morality by both mind/reason and feelings.

How can we "KNOW" something by feeling? Are you suggesting that all should "feel" as you do, and if we do not, then we are incorrect in how we, "feel?"

If we can "KNOW" morality by "mind/reason", does this mean there is a correct morality?

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 1 by Willum]

That's between JP Cusick and God, for a lack of a better phrase. The Bible says we do have the right sense OF right and wrong, re: the law is written into our heart.

[William]

[Replying to post 5 by JP Cusick]

The so called original sin of Adam and Eve was to eat the poisoned knowledge of good and bad, and it remained as poisoned knowledge ever after, and it is still poison to this day.

I think if you are going to wander down that path of reasoning, you are going to have to also add this to the comment the GOD made to His species.

"They have become like us, having the poisoned knowledge of good and bad (evil)".

This opens up a can of worms which diverges away from what is written.

Going back to what is actually written, my thoughts on that are:

That the knowledge of good and evil is the intuitive realization which accompanies the knowing...and that through a continued practical realization one learns what is good and what is evil - and thus gains solid knowledge...but in that it is not the knowledge itself which is problematic - because without knowledge one remains ignorant.

Rather it is how - without ignorance, the knowledge is used by the individual.

Knowledge brings with it - as a natural consequence - the requirement of responsibility and integrity. Reject either of those and the knowledge is misused. (not good)

[JP Cusick]

[Replying to post 5 by JP Cusick]

The so called original sin of Adam and Eve was to eat the poisoned knowledge of good and bad, and it remained as poisoned knowledge ever after, and it is still poison to this day.

I think if you are going to wander down that path of reasoning, you are going to have to also add this to the comment the GOD made to His species.

"They have become like us, having the poisoned knowledge of good and bad (evil)".

This opens up a can of worms which diverges away from what is written.

Going back to what is actually written, my thoughts on that are: (not good)

People becoming like God is a troubling quote, and one thing is certain that God viewed that as a very negative consequence.

Unequal equation = God declares it to be negative and cursed - but people judge it to be "good" based on the same poisoned knowledge.

I see it like a sex change operation where some people change their gender to be "like" the other gender, and being "like" the other gender is not equal to being the other gender, and thereby it is a fake and a fraud, so too being like God is not quite accurate because it is not healthy, and if we want the truth then we must reject that which is contrary to the truth.

The poisoned "knowledge of good and bad" gives people the feeling and exaltation of being superior (of being a God) and that is a mental sickness which needs to be healed.