.
According to Jesus Christ's testimony as a credible expert witness in all matters pertaining to the afterlife; most of the world's responsible souls haven't been making it to safety when they cross over to the other side.
• Luke 13:22-24 . . And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then said one unto him, master, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them: Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
• Matt 7:13-14 . . Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
• Matt 22:14 . . For many are called, but few are chosen.
Webster's defines "many" as consisting of, or amounting to, a large but indefinite number; while "few" is defined as consisting of, or amounting to, only a small number; viz: relative to many then, few is the lesser. Bear with me while I flesh this out.
According to the US Census Bureau: as of Sept 18, 2017 @ 11:36 pm New York Time, the resident population in the United States was approximately 325,908,667 with a death rate of approximately one every 12 seconds; which translates to an average of 7,200 American deaths of all ages, races, and genders during just one 24-hour calendar day.
According to 2009 US Census data; roughly 27.3% of America's daily deaths are under the age of 19, which would indicate that approximately 5,234 of the current daily death rate per 24 hours are adults.
Giving the "many" the benefit of the doubt by limiting their maximum percentage to 51%, would indicate a minimum of 2,670 American adults transferring to perdition every day: which translates to roughly 111 per hour.
That's a very conservative estimate as Christ didn't really specify exact percentages to represent the quantities of "few" and "many". But just think: by the time CBS completes its half hour evening news report, a bare-bones minimum of 55 Americans become new arrivals in the fiery sector of the netherworld.
Using the ratio of 2,670 condemned souls per 325,908,667 population: computing the number of condemned souls worldwide from a currently estimated global population of 7,422,223,068 people, would suggest something like 60,806 new arrivals in the fiery sector of the netherworld every 24 hours; which translates to approximately 2,534 souls every sixty minutes on the clock.
That rate would fill the 51,800 seats of the new Yankee Stadium to capacity in roughly 20 hours and 44 minutes. In other words: if the world's daily number of condemned souls started filing into the stadium at 06:00 am this morning, then by 02:44 am tomorrow, the stadium would be full to capacity.
Christmas and New Year are even worse. A study done of 26 years of death certificates shows that coronary fatalities are, on average, 11.9% higher on those days than any other days of the year; with non-heart deaths spiking to 12.2% higher.
Christianity's hell never closes; no, not at all: it's open for business 24/7/365 nonstop and indifferent to global warming, Wall Street crashes, massive layoffs, outsourcing, high school shootings, terrorism, tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes, storm surges, nuclear meltdowns, air, water, and soil pollution, a mission to Mars, freeway pile-ups, brown-outs, threatened species, the price of oil, student debt, GMO, trade deficits, protests, Federal debt, factory recalls, outsourcing, overpopulation, desertification, genocides, revolutions, civil wars, acid rain, road rage, oil spills, conscious decoupling, ISIS, LGBT marriage, Obamacare, blood diamonds, fracking, twerking, and/or President Donald Trump's tweets.
If Christianity's perception of Jesus Christ and the hereafter is correct; then it's apparent that souls never stop cascading into the abyss in an endless procession like the unbelievable millions of poultry broilers passing annually through Tyson chicken-processing plants on their way to Wendy's, McDonalds, Carl's Junior, Jack in the Box, Burger King, Chic-fil-A, KFC, A&W, Arby's, Dairy Queen, Taco Bell, et al; and to supermarkets and restaurants all over the USA and wherever else Tyson vends its meats. The slaughtering and the butchering never stop.
_
Hell's Immigrants
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Hell's Immigrants
Post #1
Last edited by WebersHome on Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hell's Immigrants
Post #71[font=Verdana]-
People tend to avoid thinking about the hereafter. Thus they become like a frog boiled to death by starting it out in cold water.
â—� Eccl 11:9 . . Rejoice, young man, during your childhood, and let your heart be pleasant during the days of young manhood. And follow the impulses of your heart and the desires of your eyes. Yet know that God will bring you to judgment for all these things.
Solomon may not have been 100% right about everything, but he was sure right about that.[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]Immigration Update[/font][font=verdana]: 40 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 2,432,240 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Sept 18, 2017.
/[/font]
People tend to avoid thinking about the hereafter. Thus they become like a frog boiled to death by starting it out in cold water.
â—� Eccl 11:9 . . Rejoice, young man, during your childhood, and let your heart be pleasant during the days of young manhood. And follow the impulses of your heart and the desires of your eyes. Yet know that God will bring you to judgment for all these things.
Solomon may not have been 100% right about everything, but he was sure right about that.[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]Immigration Update[/font][font=verdana]: 40 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 2,432,240 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Sept 18, 2017.
/[/font]
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WebersHome
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Re: Hell's Immigrants
Post #72[font=Verdana]-[/font]
[font=Georgia]OBJECTION[/font][font=Verdana]: Christ is compassionate and would never run an eternal torture mill for his lost sheep.[/font]
[font=Georgia]RESPONSE[/font][font=Verdana]: Yes, that's true. Christ's sheep are perfectly safe.
â—� John 10:27-28 . . My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
However; only Christ's believing followers are accounted as his sheep.
â—� Eph 1:13 . . And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
The rest of the world has its neck in a noose.
â—� John 3:18 . . He who believes in him is not condemned; but he who disbelieves is condemned already[/font]
[font=Georgia]OBJECTION[/font][font=Verdana]: Christ's sheep aren't, as you say "perfectly safe", no; not when they have the free will to pluck themselves out of his hand.[/font]
[font=Georgia]RESPONSE[/font][font=Verdana]: The Father's free will trumps the sheep's free will.
â—� John 6:39 . .This is the will of the one who sent me; that I should not lose anything of what He gave me.
Christ never fails to satisfy his Father's will.
â—� John 8:29 . .The one who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, because I always do what is pleasing to Him.
And besides; I should think that the words "any man" in John 10:28 would preclude the possibility of even one of Christ's sheep becoming lost sheep. An objection like the one above casts a vote of no-confidence in Christ's competence as a shepherd; and would indeed downgrade him from the status of a good shepherd to that of an ordinary shepherd and/or a pretty good shepherd, but not really a wholly good shepherd; one that the owner of the sheep can fully count on to keep safe and sound.
â—� John 17:6 . . I have revealed You to those whom You gave me out of the world. They were yours; You gave them to me.
If there is one thing that all sheep need from a shepherd it's protection from their own stupidity. If Christ cannot protect his sheep from the destructive weaknesses of their own human nature, then he doesn't deserve to be put in charge of the sheep that his Father entrusted to his care. He needs to be fired and replaced by someone just a tad more dependable.
Were the good shepherd only human, then I would be inclined to agree with the objection that his sheep might get past him and run off. But the Bible teaches that Christ is not only human, but also the divine architect of the entire cosmos with all of its forms of life, matter, and energy. So then, the good shepherd has at his disposal all the powers and abilities of the supreme being to utilize in keeping the sheep right where he wants them to be.
Surely no one in a right mind would dare to suggest that sheep have sufficient powers and abilities of their own at their disposal to overcome Christ. Were that the case, the sheep would have no need of his services; the sheep could shepherd themselves.
But even were the sheep to somehow manage to escape Christ's hand, they would still have his Father's hand to contend with; and good luck getting away from Almighty God!
Now, seeing as how the good shepherd has all the powers of the supreme being at his disposal to keep the sheep, then it shouldn't take too much more to persuade the sheep that it's okay to fully trust in this next statement of his.
â—� John 10:9 . . I am the gate; whoever enters through me shall be saved.
Were Christ a so-so shepherd; then he wouldn't dare say "shall be" saved; no, he'd have to tone it down a bit and say "can be" saved. That would leave him some room for error. But when Christ says "shall be" he's claiming a 0.0% failure rate. That's how confident Christ is that he will lose nothing of what his Father has given him.[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]Immigration Update[/font][font=verdana]: 46 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 2,797,076 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Sept 18, 2017.
/[/font]
[font=Georgia]OBJECTION[/font][font=Verdana]: Christ is compassionate and would never run an eternal torture mill for his lost sheep.[/font]
[font=Georgia]RESPONSE[/font][font=Verdana]: Yes, that's true. Christ's sheep are perfectly safe.
â—� John 10:27-28 . . My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
However; only Christ's believing followers are accounted as his sheep.
â—� Eph 1:13 . . And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
The rest of the world has its neck in a noose.
â—� John 3:18 . . He who believes in him is not condemned; but he who disbelieves is condemned already[/font]
[font=Georgia]OBJECTION[/font][font=Verdana]: Christ's sheep aren't, as you say "perfectly safe", no; not when they have the free will to pluck themselves out of his hand.[/font]
[font=Georgia]RESPONSE[/font][font=Verdana]: The Father's free will trumps the sheep's free will.
â—� John 6:39 . .This is the will of the one who sent me; that I should not lose anything of what He gave me.
Christ never fails to satisfy his Father's will.
â—� John 8:29 . .The one who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, because I always do what is pleasing to Him.
And besides; I should think that the words "any man" in John 10:28 would preclude the possibility of even one of Christ's sheep becoming lost sheep. An objection like the one above casts a vote of no-confidence in Christ's competence as a shepherd; and would indeed downgrade him from the status of a good shepherd to that of an ordinary shepherd and/or a pretty good shepherd, but not really a wholly good shepherd; one that the owner of the sheep can fully count on to keep safe and sound.
â—� John 17:6 . . I have revealed You to those whom You gave me out of the world. They were yours; You gave them to me.
If there is one thing that all sheep need from a shepherd it's protection from their own stupidity. If Christ cannot protect his sheep from the destructive weaknesses of their own human nature, then he doesn't deserve to be put in charge of the sheep that his Father entrusted to his care. He needs to be fired and replaced by someone just a tad more dependable.
Were the good shepherd only human, then I would be inclined to agree with the objection that his sheep might get past him and run off. But the Bible teaches that Christ is not only human, but also the divine architect of the entire cosmos with all of its forms of life, matter, and energy. So then, the good shepherd has at his disposal all the powers and abilities of the supreme being to utilize in keeping the sheep right where he wants them to be.
Surely no one in a right mind would dare to suggest that sheep have sufficient powers and abilities of their own at their disposal to overcome Christ. Were that the case, the sheep would have no need of his services; the sheep could shepherd themselves.
But even were the sheep to somehow manage to escape Christ's hand, they would still have his Father's hand to contend with; and good luck getting away from Almighty God!
Now, seeing as how the good shepherd has all the powers of the supreme being at his disposal to keep the sheep, then it shouldn't take too much more to persuade the sheep that it's okay to fully trust in this next statement of his.
â—� John 10:9 . . I am the gate; whoever enters through me shall be saved.
Were Christ a so-so shepherd; then he wouldn't dare say "shall be" saved; no, he'd have to tone it down a bit and say "can be" saved. That would leave him some room for error. But when Christ says "shall be" he's claiming a 0.0% failure rate. That's how confident Christ is that he will lose nothing of what his Father has given him.[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]Immigration Update[/font][font=verdana]: 46 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 2,797,076 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Sept 18, 2017.
/[/font]
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Re: Hell's Immigrants
Post #73[font=Verdana]-
Q: Isn't Judaism as useful as Christianity for sinners seeking God's forgiveness and atonement for sin? Isn't that the whole purpose of Yom Kippur, a.k.a. the Day of Atonement?
A: Pinning one's hopes on the Day Of Atonement is futile. For one thing: there's no one to perform the ritual seeing as how there is neither a Temple nor a fully functioning Levitical priesthood in Jerusalem at this time. In point of fact, neither of those two essential elements of the Day of Atonement have been in Jerusalem since 70 AD. But that's not the worst of it.
There is a special goat involved in Yom Kippur commonly called a scapegoat, which Webster's defines as a person who is unfairly blamed for something that others have done; in other words: a fall guy. But that does not accurately define Yom Kippur's goat. It's actually an escaping goat; viz: a fugitive; here's why.
The people's sins are symbolically placed upon the goat; which is then allowed to take off instead of executed. That means that the people's sins go unpunished and still out there somewhere hanging over their heads like a sword of Damocles.[/font]
[font=Georgia]NOTE[/font][font=Verdana]: Some people, unfamiliar with animal husbandry, think that leaving a goat out in a wilderness place to fend for itself is a death sentence. No; far from it. Goats are survivors. They can get by in environments that quite a few other species would find quite disagreeable. And though the Jews were in a wilderness place during the giving of the law, there was vegetation enough to nourish the herds. (Ex 34:3)
Yom Kippur's purpose then, isn't to expunge the people's sins; rather, to remind the people that although Yom Kippur's ritual sanitizes them as per Lev 16:30, their sins are still on the books, yet to be brought to justice.
â—� Ex 34:6-7 . . Yhvh, Yhvh God: compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in loving kindness and truth; who keeps loving kindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished
â—� Nahum 1:3 . . Yhvh is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked
Looking at those two scriptures one cannot help but scratch their head and wonder how it's possible that God forgives the guilty, and yet at the same time does not acquit the guilty. Well; the answer to that is: forgiveness and acquittal are two very different things in the Old Testament.
In other words; though God forgives He does not forget; viz: the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God does not permit Him to expunge the guilty party's record; viz: forgiveness as per the covenant is merely a reprieve; which Webster's defines as: to delay the punishment of someone; such as a prisoner who is sentenced to death.
Long story short: there's a reckoning coming for Yhvh's people when the covenant will finally get its pound of flesh as per Lev 26:3-38, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:1-69.[/font]
[font=Georgia]NOTE[/font][font=Verdana]: Never wish a Jew happy Yom Kippur because it is not a day to be joyous, quite the contrary it's a day to be depressed; viz: a day to afflict oneself; which Webster's defines as causing distress so severely as to cause persistent suffering and/or anguish. (Lev 16:29, Lev 16:31, Lev 23:27, and Lev 23:32). Jews that fail to be unhappy on that day accrue an instant curse upon themselves. (Deut 27:26)[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]Immigration Update[/font][font=verdana]: 49 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 2,979,494 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Sept 18, 2017.
/[/font]
Q: Isn't Judaism as useful as Christianity for sinners seeking God's forgiveness and atonement for sin? Isn't that the whole purpose of Yom Kippur, a.k.a. the Day of Atonement?
A: Pinning one's hopes on the Day Of Atonement is futile. For one thing: there's no one to perform the ritual seeing as how there is neither a Temple nor a fully functioning Levitical priesthood in Jerusalem at this time. In point of fact, neither of those two essential elements of the Day of Atonement have been in Jerusalem since 70 AD. But that's not the worst of it.
There is a special goat involved in Yom Kippur commonly called a scapegoat, which Webster's defines as a person who is unfairly blamed for something that others have done; in other words: a fall guy. But that does not accurately define Yom Kippur's goat. It's actually an escaping goat; viz: a fugitive; here's why.
The people's sins are symbolically placed upon the goat; which is then allowed to take off instead of executed. That means that the people's sins go unpunished and still out there somewhere hanging over their heads like a sword of Damocles.[/font]
[font=Georgia]NOTE[/font][font=Verdana]: Some people, unfamiliar with animal husbandry, think that leaving a goat out in a wilderness place to fend for itself is a death sentence. No; far from it. Goats are survivors. They can get by in environments that quite a few other species would find quite disagreeable. And though the Jews were in a wilderness place during the giving of the law, there was vegetation enough to nourish the herds. (Ex 34:3)
Yom Kippur's purpose then, isn't to expunge the people's sins; rather, to remind the people that although Yom Kippur's ritual sanitizes them as per Lev 16:30, their sins are still on the books, yet to be brought to justice.
â—� Ex 34:6-7 . . Yhvh, Yhvh God: compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in loving kindness and truth; who keeps loving kindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished
â—� Nahum 1:3 . . Yhvh is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked
Looking at those two scriptures one cannot help but scratch their head and wonder how it's possible that God forgives the guilty, and yet at the same time does not acquit the guilty. Well; the answer to that is: forgiveness and acquittal are two very different things in the Old Testament.
In other words; though God forgives He does not forget; viz: the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God does not permit Him to expunge the guilty party's record; viz: forgiveness as per the covenant is merely a reprieve; which Webster's defines as: to delay the punishment of someone; such as a prisoner who is sentenced to death.
Long story short: there's a reckoning coming for Yhvh's people when the covenant will finally get its pound of flesh as per Lev 26:3-38, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:1-69.[/font]
[font=Georgia]NOTE[/font][font=Verdana]: Never wish a Jew happy Yom Kippur because it is not a day to be joyous, quite the contrary it's a day to be depressed; viz: a day to afflict oneself; which Webster's defines as causing distress so severely as to cause persistent suffering and/or anguish. (Lev 16:29, Lev 16:31, Lev 23:27, and Lev 23:32). Jews that fail to be unhappy on that day accrue an instant curse upon themselves. (Deut 27:26)[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]Immigration Update[/font][font=verdana]: 49 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 2,979,494 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Sept 18, 2017.
/[/font]
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Re: Hell's Immigrants
Post #74[font=Verdana]-
I know of the Protestant pastor who was asked by Audie Murphy's widow Pamela to speak at her husband's funeral. Audie Murphy, as you may already know, was a 32nd degree Scottish Rite Mason and a Shriner; but he wasn't a Christian.
In amazement, the pastor asked Mrs. Murphy why she chose a Christian to speak at her husband's funeral. Though Audie himself wasn't a Christian, his widow was; and she explained that the Hollywood crowd would be there the day of his funeral, and having hob-nobbed with them during her husband's acting career, she was fully aware that many of them rarely listened to something on the afterlife related to Christ's crucifixion. Well . . that day they did, and were very annoyed because they were expecting the usual sappy, feel-good platitudes to which pampered celebrities are accustomed.
â—� Ecc 7:4 . . The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth.
Some may feel that hell isn't an appropriate topic at a funeral. But I think that, other than Xmas and Easter, you couldn't pick a better time to bring it up, especially since Christ said that the majority ends up there.
â—� Ecc 7:2 . . It is better to go to a house of mourning than to go to a house of gaiety, for death is the destiny of every man; the living should take this seriously.
According to the Bible; not many great people are called. If that's true, then we have to expect that the majority of the world's best and brightest achievers-- the really big names in sports, science, medicine, law, politics, technology, business, industry, religion, entertainment, and education, etc --don't, and won't, make it to safety when they pass on. (1Cor 1:26)
As I watched some of the splendor and pomp of President Gerald Ford's funeral back in January of 2007, I couldn't help but wonder if he was in a position to really appreciate it; as I suspect people in hell would certainly no longer really care anymore whether they were given an unknown pauper's disposal in a City incinerator, or reverently placed in a grand tomb in the National Cemetery with world-wide television coverage.[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]Immigration Update[/font][font=verdana]: 52 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 3,161,912 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Sept 18, 2017.
/[/font]
I know of the Protestant pastor who was asked by Audie Murphy's widow Pamela to speak at her husband's funeral. Audie Murphy, as you may already know, was a 32nd degree Scottish Rite Mason and a Shriner; but he wasn't a Christian.
In amazement, the pastor asked Mrs. Murphy why she chose a Christian to speak at her husband's funeral. Though Audie himself wasn't a Christian, his widow was; and she explained that the Hollywood crowd would be there the day of his funeral, and having hob-nobbed with them during her husband's acting career, she was fully aware that many of them rarely listened to something on the afterlife related to Christ's crucifixion. Well . . that day they did, and were very annoyed because they were expecting the usual sappy, feel-good platitudes to which pampered celebrities are accustomed.
â—� Ecc 7:4 . . The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth.
Some may feel that hell isn't an appropriate topic at a funeral. But I think that, other than Xmas and Easter, you couldn't pick a better time to bring it up, especially since Christ said that the majority ends up there.
â—� Ecc 7:2 . . It is better to go to a house of mourning than to go to a house of gaiety, for death is the destiny of every man; the living should take this seriously.
According to the Bible; not many great people are called. If that's true, then we have to expect that the majority of the world's best and brightest achievers-- the really big names in sports, science, medicine, law, politics, technology, business, industry, religion, entertainment, and education, etc --don't, and won't, make it to safety when they pass on. (1Cor 1:26)
As I watched some of the splendor and pomp of President Gerald Ford's funeral back in January of 2007, I couldn't help but wonder if he was in a position to really appreciate it; as I suspect people in hell would certainly no longer really care anymore whether they were given an unknown pauper's disposal in a City incinerator, or reverently placed in a grand tomb in the National Cemetery with world-wide television coverage.[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]Immigration Update[/font][font=verdana]: 52 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 3,161,912 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Sept 18, 2017.
/[/font]
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Re: Hell's Immigrants
Post #75[font=Verdana]-
â—� Deut 27:26 . . Cursed be he who will not uphold the terms of this Teaching and observe them.
One thing that must be emphasized is that the curse is irrevocable; so it's very important to come to grips with it; and the sooner the better.
â—� Matt 5:18 . . For assuredly, I say to you: till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle will by any means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
In other words: whoever deserves that curse is absolutely certain to get it; in point of fact, Deut 27;26 is grammatically present tense rather than future, indicating that the curse is instant-- no delay and no waiting period; it's already on the books like a sword of Damocles; suspended over people's heads by a slender thread easily broken by neglecting to take advantage of the safety net God provided by sacrificing His own son. (Gal 3:13)[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]Immigration Update[/font][font=verdana]: 55 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 3,344,330 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Sept 18, 2017.
/[/font]
â—� Deut 27:26 . . Cursed be he who will not uphold the terms of this Teaching and observe them.
One thing that must be emphasized is that the curse is irrevocable; so it's very important to come to grips with it; and the sooner the better.
â—� Matt 5:18 . . For assuredly, I say to you: till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle will by any means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
In other words: whoever deserves that curse is absolutely certain to get it; in point of fact, Deut 27;26 is grammatically present tense rather than future, indicating that the curse is instant-- no delay and no waiting period; it's already on the books like a sword of Damocles; suspended over people's heads by a slender thread easily broken by neglecting to take advantage of the safety net God provided by sacrificing His own son. (Gal 3:13)[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]Immigration Update[/font][font=verdana]: 55 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 3,344,330 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Sept 18, 2017.
/[/font]
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Re: Hell's Immigrants
Post #76[font=Verdana]-[/font]
[font=Georgia]POSIT[/font][font=Verdana]: The Old Testament's God abhors human sacrifices. Therefore, He couldn't possibly approve of the New Testament's cross. For example: Jer 32:33-35 and Deut 12:31.[/font]
[font=Georgia]RESPONSE[/font][font=Verdana]: Though God normally frowns upon sacrificing one's underage children-- e.g. Lev 18:21, Lev 20:2-5, Deut 12:31, Deut 18:10, cf. 2Kgs 16:3, 2Kgs 17:31, 2Kgs 23:10, 2Kgs 21:6, Ps 106:34, Ezk 20:31, Ezk 23:37, Jer 7:31, Jer 19:4, Jer 32:35 --to my knowledge He's never frowned upon sacrificing a consenting adult.
The primary reason adult human sacrifices are illegal under the terms and conditions of the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God is simply because they aren't stipulated; and it's illegal to amend the covenant to include them. (Deut 4:2, Deut 5:29-30)
But Christ wasn't sacrificed as an old covenant atonement; rather, the new.
â—� 1Cor 11:25-26 . . He took the cup after supper, saying: This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.
The Old Testament predicted human sacrifice; with the Old Testament God's full approval no less.
â—� Isa 53:6 . . Yhvh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
â—� Isa 53:10 . . It was Yhvh's will to crush him, and cause him to suffer. Yhvh makes his life a guilt offering[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]Immigration Update[/font][font=verdana]: 58 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 3,526,748 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Sept 18, 2017.
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[font=Georgia]POSIT[/font][font=Verdana]: The Old Testament's God abhors human sacrifices. Therefore, He couldn't possibly approve of the New Testament's cross. For example: Jer 32:33-35 and Deut 12:31.[/font]
[font=Georgia]RESPONSE[/font][font=Verdana]: Though God normally frowns upon sacrificing one's underage children-- e.g. Lev 18:21, Lev 20:2-5, Deut 12:31, Deut 18:10, cf. 2Kgs 16:3, 2Kgs 17:31, 2Kgs 23:10, 2Kgs 21:6, Ps 106:34, Ezk 20:31, Ezk 23:37, Jer 7:31, Jer 19:4, Jer 32:35 --to my knowledge He's never frowned upon sacrificing a consenting adult.
The primary reason adult human sacrifices are illegal under the terms and conditions of the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God is simply because they aren't stipulated; and it's illegal to amend the covenant to include them. (Deut 4:2, Deut 5:29-30)
But Christ wasn't sacrificed as an old covenant atonement; rather, the new.
â—� 1Cor 11:25-26 . . He took the cup after supper, saying: This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.
The Old Testament predicted human sacrifice; with the Old Testament God's full approval no less.
â—� Isa 53:6 . . Yhvh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
â—� Isa 53:10 . . It was Yhvh's will to crush him, and cause him to suffer. Yhvh makes his life a guilt offering[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]Immigration Update[/font][font=verdana]: 58 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 3,526,748 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Sept 18, 2017.
/[/font]
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WebersHome
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Re: Hell's Immigrants
Post #77[font=Verdana]-[/font]
[font=Georgia]POSIT[/font][font=Verdana]: The Bible says that God has never actually desired sacrifices and offerings. For example:
"For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them, saying: Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you." (Jer 7:22-23)
"In sacrifice and offering you have not delighted, but you have given me an open ear. Burnt offering and sin offering you have not required." (Psalm 40:6)
"For you do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it; you do not delight in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and a contrite heart-- these, O God, you will not despise." (Ps 51:16-17)
"For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." (Hos 6:6)[/font]
[font=Georgia]RESPONSE[/font][font=Verdana]: The posit's interpretation of those passage effectively invalidates the entire God-given book of Leviticus; and also makes Christ look pretty stupid because it was his belief that not one jot nor one tittle of Israel's covenanted law would pass away until all is fulfilled. (Matt 5:17-19)
The point is: God prefers that people not sin; but rather, conduct themselves in a manner that needs no atonement. In other words: atonements are a contingency rather than the ideal; viz: an ambulance sent to a train wreck. Well; it's preferred that trains remain on their rails rather than going off.
As for Hos 6:6, the mercy that God desires is not His extended to you, but yours extended to your fellow man; viz: rituals are unacceptable substitutes for things like kindness, charity, lenience, sympathy, courtesy and/or compassion.
Ps 51:16-17 requires an explanation because it's a special case. David penned it as a result of his tryst with Bathsheba and his engineering of the death of her husband Uriah. God allows no atonements for those two sins: both are unforgivable death offenses under the terms and conditions of the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God..
â—� Ex 21:13-14 . . If a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, you shall take him away from my very altar and put him to death.
â—� Num 35:31 . . Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who deserves to die. He must surely be put to death.
â—� Lev 20:10 . . If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-- with the wife of his neighbor --both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
â—� Deut 22:22 . . If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die-- both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman --so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
In other words: If the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God stipulated sacrifices for premeditated murder and adultery; David would have offered them; but as it is; those sins can only be atoned by capital punishment.[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]Immigration Update[/font][font=verdana]: 64 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 3,891,584 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Sept 18, 2017.
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[font=Georgia]POSIT[/font][font=Verdana]: The Bible says that God has never actually desired sacrifices and offerings. For example:
"For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them, saying: Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you." (Jer 7:22-23)
"In sacrifice and offering you have not delighted, but you have given me an open ear. Burnt offering and sin offering you have not required." (Psalm 40:6)
"For you do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it; you do not delight in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and a contrite heart-- these, O God, you will not despise." (Ps 51:16-17)
"For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." (Hos 6:6)[/font]
[font=Georgia]RESPONSE[/font][font=Verdana]: The posit's interpretation of those passage effectively invalidates the entire God-given book of Leviticus; and also makes Christ look pretty stupid because it was his belief that not one jot nor one tittle of Israel's covenanted law would pass away until all is fulfilled. (Matt 5:17-19)
The point is: God prefers that people not sin; but rather, conduct themselves in a manner that needs no atonement. In other words: atonements are a contingency rather than the ideal; viz: an ambulance sent to a train wreck. Well; it's preferred that trains remain on their rails rather than going off.
As for Hos 6:6, the mercy that God desires is not His extended to you, but yours extended to your fellow man; viz: rituals are unacceptable substitutes for things like kindness, charity, lenience, sympathy, courtesy and/or compassion.
Ps 51:16-17 requires an explanation because it's a special case. David penned it as a result of his tryst with Bathsheba and his engineering of the death of her husband Uriah. God allows no atonements for those two sins: both are unforgivable death offenses under the terms and conditions of the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God..
â—� Ex 21:13-14 . . If a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, you shall take him away from my very altar and put him to death.
â—� Num 35:31 . . Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who deserves to die. He must surely be put to death.
â—� Lev 20:10 . . If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-- with the wife of his neighbor --both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
â—� Deut 22:22 . . If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die-- both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman --so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
In other words: If the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God stipulated sacrifices for premeditated murder and adultery; David would have offered them; but as it is; those sins can only be atoned by capital punishment.[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]Immigration Update[/font][font=verdana]: 64 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 3,891,584 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Sept 18, 2017.
/[/font]
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WebersHome
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Re: Hell's Immigrants
Post #78[font=Verdana]-
Q: Can you cite an Old Testament example where God approved sacrificing a consenting adult?
A: Abraham lived a pretty good number of years before Israel's covenanted law was instituted. Therefore, he wasn't obligated to comply with it because biblical law doesn't have ex post facto jurisdiction; viz: it isn't retroactive. (Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13, and Gal 3:17)
So then, Abraham was in a position to offer a human sacrifice without incurring guilt; which he did.
â—� Gen 22:1-2 . . Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him: Abraham! And he said: Here I am. And He said: Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah; and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you.
Did Abraham slay Isaac? No, but did Abraham offer Isaac? Yes.
â—� Gen 22:9 . .Then they came to the place of which God had told him. And Abraham built an altar there and placed the wood in order; and he bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, upon the wood.
You see, once a gift dedicated to God is placed on an altar, it's a done deal-- whether the offering is dead or alive makes no difference. In point of fact, the letter to Hebrews credits Abraham with offering his son in obedience to God's command.
â—� Heb 11:17 . . By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son
So then, the next question is: was Isaac a consenting adult?
Well; according to Gen 22:6-7, Isaac was old enough to shoulder a load of wood; so he wasn't a little boy like so many people like to think he was. Plus, he was mature enough to understand the particulars of a burnt offering.
If the narrative's chronology is tight, then the next event in Isaac's life was the death of his mother at 127 (Gen 23:1-2). She was 90 when Isaac was born (Gen 17:17) making him around 37 at the time of the Akedah.
Another Old Testament example is located in the 53rd chapter of Isaiah.[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]Immigration Update[/font][font=verdana]: 69 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 4,195,614 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Sept 18, 2017.
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Q: Can you cite an Old Testament example where God approved sacrificing a consenting adult?
A: Abraham lived a pretty good number of years before Israel's covenanted law was instituted. Therefore, he wasn't obligated to comply with it because biblical law doesn't have ex post facto jurisdiction; viz: it isn't retroactive. (Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13, and Gal 3:17)
So then, Abraham was in a position to offer a human sacrifice without incurring guilt; which he did.
â—� Gen 22:1-2 . . Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him: Abraham! And he said: Here I am. And He said: Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah; and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you.
Did Abraham slay Isaac? No, but did Abraham offer Isaac? Yes.
â—� Gen 22:9 . .Then they came to the place of which God had told him. And Abraham built an altar there and placed the wood in order; and he bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, upon the wood.
You see, once a gift dedicated to God is placed on an altar, it's a done deal-- whether the offering is dead or alive makes no difference. In point of fact, the letter to Hebrews credits Abraham with offering his son in obedience to God's command.
â—� Heb 11:17 . . By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son
So then, the next question is: was Isaac a consenting adult?
Well; according to Gen 22:6-7, Isaac was old enough to shoulder a load of wood; so he wasn't a little boy like so many people like to think he was. Plus, he was mature enough to understand the particulars of a burnt offering.
If the narrative's chronology is tight, then the next event in Isaac's life was the death of his mother at 127 (Gen 23:1-2). She was 90 when Isaac was born (Gen 17:17) making him around 37 at the time of the Akedah.
Another Old Testament example is located in the 53rd chapter of Isaiah.[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]Immigration Update[/font][font=verdana]: 69 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 4,195,614 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Sept 18, 2017.
/[/font]
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WebersHome
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Re: Hell's Immigrants
Post #79[font=Verdana]-
â—� Ex 20:5 . . I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me.
Q: How is that fair? holding children responsible for what their parents do?
A: Ex 20:5-- along with Ex 34:7, Num 14:18, and Deut 5:9 --is often construed to mean that children are held responsible for their parents' sins; but that isn't it. What we're looking at here is collateral damage. It is apparently God's prerogative to get back at people by going after their posterity and/or the people they govern.
There's a horrific example of collateral damage located at Num 16:25-34. Another is the Flood. No doubt quite a few underage children drowned in that event due to their parents' wickedness. The same happened to the children in Sodom and Gomorrah. Ham's punishment for humiliating Noah was a curse upon his son Canaan. And during Moses' face-off with Pharaoh, God moved against the man's firstborn son along with all those of his subjects.
There are times when God chooses to judge people by going after not only themselves; but also the things that pertain to them; including, but not limited to, their progeny. I don't quite understand the logic of that kind of justice; but then again: I don't try; I just go along with it; primarily because it's futile to find fault with God.
Q: Come on now. Does anybody really "hate" God?
A: As a rule; God doesn't measure one's love and/or hatred for Himself in accordance with their feelings, but in accordance to their loyalty and/or disloyalty. In other words: even if somebody doesn't particularly like God as a person; He can deal with that just so long as they do as He says and give Him the respect that His position deserves.
In the Army we called that Military Courtesy. In other words; I saluted officers, got out of their way, spoke to them in a respectful tone of voice, and did what they said not because they were especially likeable as persons, but because they were the ones in command. The same principle applies to Christ.
â—� John 14:15 . . If you love me, you will comply with what I command.
â—� John 14:21 . .Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me.
â—� John 14:23-24 . . If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching . . He who does not love me will not obey my teaching.
â—� John 15:14 . .You are my friends if you do as I wish.[/font]
[font=Georgia]FYI[/font][font=Verdana]: There are a number of Christians at large who honestly believe that church attendance is an adequate substitute for compliance with God's wishes. Well; it's not.
â—� 1Sam 15:22-23 . . Has Yhvh as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of Yhvh? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry.[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]Immigration Update[/font][font=verdana]: 72 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 4,378,032 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Sept 18, 2017.
/[/font]
â—� Ex 20:5 . . I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me.
Q: How is that fair? holding children responsible for what their parents do?
A: Ex 20:5-- along with Ex 34:7, Num 14:18, and Deut 5:9 --is often construed to mean that children are held responsible for their parents' sins; but that isn't it. What we're looking at here is collateral damage. It is apparently God's prerogative to get back at people by going after their posterity and/or the people they govern.
There's a horrific example of collateral damage located at Num 16:25-34. Another is the Flood. No doubt quite a few underage children drowned in that event due to their parents' wickedness. The same happened to the children in Sodom and Gomorrah. Ham's punishment for humiliating Noah was a curse upon his son Canaan. And during Moses' face-off with Pharaoh, God moved against the man's firstborn son along with all those of his subjects.
There are times when God chooses to judge people by going after not only themselves; but also the things that pertain to them; including, but not limited to, their progeny. I don't quite understand the logic of that kind of justice; but then again: I don't try; I just go along with it; primarily because it's futile to find fault with God.
Q: Come on now. Does anybody really "hate" God?
A: As a rule; God doesn't measure one's love and/or hatred for Himself in accordance with their feelings, but in accordance to their loyalty and/or disloyalty. In other words: even if somebody doesn't particularly like God as a person; He can deal with that just so long as they do as He says and give Him the respect that His position deserves.
In the Army we called that Military Courtesy. In other words; I saluted officers, got out of their way, spoke to them in a respectful tone of voice, and did what they said not because they were especially likeable as persons, but because they were the ones in command. The same principle applies to Christ.
â—� John 14:15 . . If you love me, you will comply with what I command.
â—� John 14:21 . .Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me.
â—� John 14:23-24 . . If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching . . He who does not love me will not obey my teaching.
â—� John 15:14 . .You are my friends if you do as I wish.[/font]
[font=Georgia]FYI[/font][font=Verdana]: There are a number of Christians at large who honestly believe that church attendance is an adequate substitute for compliance with God's wishes. Well; it's not.
â—� 1Sam 15:22-23 . . Has Yhvh as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of Yhvh? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry.[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]Immigration Update[/font][font=verdana]: 72 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 4,378,032 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Sept 18, 2017.
/[/font]
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WebersHome
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Re: Hell's Immigrants
Post #80[font=Verdana]-
Q: Doesn't Acts 2:24-33 teach that Christ went to hell at his death?
A: The koiné Greek word for "hell" in that passage of the KJV is haides (a.k.a. hades) which is an ambiguous word for the netherworld-- an afterlife sphere where everybody goes when they pass on; both the good and the bad and the young and the old. Although haides can imply fiery suffering in the afterlife (e.g. Luke 16:23) the specific koiné word for fiery punishment is geena (gheh'-en-nah) for example Matt 5:22, Matt 5:29-30, Matt 23:15, Matt 23:33, and Luke 12:5
The actual netherworld location to which Christ departed was a pleasant situation rather than an incinerator.
â—� Luke 23:39-43 . . One of the criminals hanging beside him scoffed: So you're the Messiah, are you? Prove it by saving yourself-- and us, too, while you're at it! But the other criminal protested: Aren't you afraid of God? Not even when you're dying? We deserve to die for our evil deeds, but this man hasn't done anything wrong. Then he said: Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. And Jesus replied: I assure you; today you will be with me in paradise.
The koiné Greek word for "paradise" is paradeisos (par-ad'-i-sos) which means: a park; which Webster's defines as: 1) a tract of land that often includes lawns, woodland, and pasture attached to a country house and is used as a game preserve and for recreation, and/or 2) a piece of ground in or near a city or town kept for ornament and recreation, and/or 3) an area maintained in its natural state as a public property.[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]Immigration Update[/font][font=verdana]: 77 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 4,682,062 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Sept 18, 2017.
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Q: Doesn't Acts 2:24-33 teach that Christ went to hell at his death?
A: The koiné Greek word for "hell" in that passage of the KJV is haides (a.k.a. hades) which is an ambiguous word for the netherworld-- an afterlife sphere where everybody goes when they pass on; both the good and the bad and the young and the old. Although haides can imply fiery suffering in the afterlife (e.g. Luke 16:23) the specific koiné word for fiery punishment is geena (gheh'-en-nah) for example Matt 5:22, Matt 5:29-30, Matt 23:15, Matt 23:33, and Luke 12:5
The actual netherworld location to which Christ departed was a pleasant situation rather than an incinerator.
â—� Luke 23:39-43 . . One of the criminals hanging beside him scoffed: So you're the Messiah, are you? Prove it by saving yourself-- and us, too, while you're at it! But the other criminal protested: Aren't you afraid of God? Not even when you're dying? We deserve to die for our evil deeds, but this man hasn't done anything wrong. Then he said: Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. And Jesus replied: I assure you; today you will be with me in paradise.
The koiné Greek word for "paradise" is paradeisos (par-ad'-i-sos) which means: a park; which Webster's defines as: 1) a tract of land that often includes lawns, woodland, and pasture attached to a country house and is used as a game preserve and for recreation, and/or 2) a piece of ground in or near a city or town kept for ornament and recreation, and/or 3) an area maintained in its natural state as a public property.[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]Immigration Update[/font][font=verdana]: 77 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 4,682,062 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Sept 18, 2017.
/[/font]
