The Satan problem

[DanieltheDragon]

One issue I have with the Christian bible story is the idea of Satan. Now obvious contradictions aside. Why would a being that supposedly has been in the presence of God knows God's powers ever rebel against him to begin with? Satan should already know the conclusion of such a choice because we know the conclusion. The story already has an ending. There is no scenario in which Satan wins. There is no end game. The utter futility of such a character makes him unrealistic to begin with.

How can the character of Satan be anything other than an ill conceived boogeyman fabricated by either disengious, deleduded, or mistaken bible writers?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1 by DanieltheDragon]

Now obvious contradictions aside. Why would a being that supposedly has been in the presence of God knows God's powers ever rebel against him to begin with?

This may just be a difference between you and I, but surely you believe that the Bible portrays a murderous bully of a God? Isn't standing up to bullies, to murderous thugs, the right thing to do, even if the bully is stronger, faster and more powerful than you?
Look at the Founding Fathers in the US for example. They perceived Britain to be the greatest empire in the world at the time and yet, when Britain sought taxation without representation, Washington and others stood up against them.
To play devil's advocate (pardon the pun)...Satan either knew God is all-powerful but believed that standing up to authoritarianism is the right thing to do, or didn't believe that God is all that he portrayed himself to be, and that standing up to this bully is STILL the right thing to do.

Satan should already know the conclusion of such a choice because we know the conclusion.

I believe the right thing to do when it comes to an oppressor, to a bully, is to go down fighting, even if the bully is so much more powerful than me (or use subterfuge against it).
Perhaps Satan thought the same way.
To quote the Aiel from Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series
Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the last day.
There is much there that I can admire.

The story already has an ending. There is no scenario in which Satan wins.

I find this amusing with those Christians who are so worried about what Satan is going to do, who think Satan possesses people or is up to nefarious plots. I always laugh at this, because according to their own theology, the thing they profess to believe...Satan loses. They should have nothing at all to fear.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 19 by bluethread]

Sure, HaSatan would have more reasons not to rebel. However, those reasons are not absolute. There is no reason that I know of that superior beings can not be as deluded in their views as inferior beings.

The level of delusion we are talking about here is equivalent to a quadriplegic thinking he can become an NFL quarterback. For whatever reason Satan would go against God it is irrelevant for the fact that Satan fails. This leaves us with a deeply and fundamentally flawed character. It makes no sense for God to create such a being in the first place even if the being was originally designed to help God.

[marco]

This leaves us with a deeply and fundamentally flawed character. It makes no sense for God to create such a being in the first place even if the being was originally designed to help God.

But it makes sense to have Satan since he explains Vesuvius. Poor Napoleon was used as a character to frighten British kids with "Boney will get you .." Any flaws in Satan's character come from his many creators. The poet Burns paints a more interesting and amusing character in Auld Nick.

[ttruscott]

This leaves us with a deeply and fundamentally flawed character. It makes no sense for God to create such a being in the first place even if the being was originally designed to help God.

While some of the hard core Calvinists have been known to say that Satan was indeed created evil, no other church that I know of claims this as they all support the idea that he was blameless in his ways from the day he were created till wickedness was found in him as per Ezekiel's metaphor, 28:15.

If "it makes no sense for God to create such a being in the first place," then why keep flogging this dead horse since few / no one believes it anyway except you?

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 24 by ttruscott]

Couldn't the same be said about PCE?

I don't believe in Satan or God, from my perspective I am talking about a fictional character. I think others would and have agreed that Satan as depicted by various religious sects is a poorly thought out character. As this character would have to be profoundly deluded or diminished intellectually to even fathom the actions he is purported to take against God or will take against God in the first place.

It is a problem for me to take a step in the direction of being convinced when such a character exists in the story being told. Characters like this can work in fiction to drive a story, but they become illogical when someone takes it out of fiction.

Answer me this why would God create a being that is either:

A. Diminished mentally to the point it can't understand the futility of its actions despite being told the outcome of said actions.

B. A being that powerful enough that it would defy him and spoil his creation yet weak enough to not succeed in the end. While also being aware of its shortcomings.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 24 by ttruscott]

Couldn't the same be said about PCE?

What are you on about/...you contend GOd created Satan perfectly evil and I claim GOD created him perfectly innocent with the ability to use HIS free will to choose to be either perfectly good or perfectly evil...hardly the same.

Answer me this why would God create a being that is either:
A. Diminished mentally to the point it can't understand the futility of its actions despite being told the outcome of said actions.

Oh, keep on flogging eh?

As I answered in the post you quote, HE did NOT create Satan with a diminished mentally. Satan understood full that IF YHWH was indeed the GOd HE claimed to be then his actions were indeed futile and would end badly.

Despite being told the what the outcome of HIS rebellious actions would be he did not accept that as truth but decided it was the malicious manipulative lies of a false claimant to deity. No one can claim GOD created them deficient when they face judgement.

All diminishment of mentally capacity occurred as a result of their choosing sin, not the cause of their choosing sin.

B. A being that powerful enough that it would defy him and spoil his creation yet weak enough to not succeed in the end. While also being aware of its shortcomings.

Have you never met a defiant two year old saying , "NO!"??? It does not take real power to defy authority in the least, only a feeling of strong desire...

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 26 by ttruscott]

Despite being told the what the outcome of HIS rebellious actions would be he did not accept that as truth but decided it was the malicious manipulative lies of a false claimant to deity. No one can claim GOD created them deficient when they face judgement.

Ted, answer me this please. Imagine you meet this nice, kindly old grandmother?


Imagine you've never seen or heard of her before. Now imagine she tells you something stunning. She tells you she's Queen Elizabeth The Second, Monarch of Great Britain and the various nations of the Commonwealth.
Imagine you're skeptical of this. You decide not to take this as truth, but think that she is malicious, manipulative and a false claimant.
Should you be punished for not believing this woman, irregardless of whether or not she actually IS who she claims to be?

I claim GOD created him perfectly innocent with the ability to use HIS free will to choose to be either perfectly good or perfectly evil...hardly the same

And yet for some reason, God's creation, Satan, does not go with the choice to be 'good' a.k.a. believe Yahweh is who he says he is.
Something's gone wrong.
Imagine I'm a Siri (the digital assistant on Apple iPhones and iPads, if you're not aware) programmer, and I tell Siri I'm a white man. Siri then calculates and says "Sorry, but I disagree. My research indicates that you are more likely a black man". Now I AM a white man...but is this Siri being 'evil'? Don't I share at least some of the blame for my creation having gotten my race wrong?

HE did NOT create Satan with a diminished mentally. Satan understood full that IF YHWH was indeed the GOd HE claimed to be then his actions were indeed futile and would end badly.

Despite being told the what the outcome of HIS rebellious actions would be he did not accept that as truth but decided it was the malicious manipulative lies of a false claimant to deity.

So why did Satan go with the 'Yahweh is a liar, a false claimant to deity'? Shouldn't Satan have been aware, to a greater degree than humanity, that Yahweh IS deity? Why did Satan think it more likely that 'Yahweh is a liar, a false claimant to deity' if he was NOT diminished mentally?

All diminishment of mentally capacity occurred as a result of their choosing sin, not the cause of their choosing sin.

Of course you present not a single iota of evidence to support this claim, and have in fact in the past indicated that the very concept of supporting evidence for your particular set of claims (PCE) is antithetical.

Have you never met a defiant two year old saying , "NO!"??? It does not take real power to defy authority in the least, only a feeling of strong desire...

So then you're contradicting yourself. Now, the analogy is that Satan's mindset is akin to that of a two year old...in other words, a diminished mental capacity.

[William]

[Replying to post 25 by DanieltheDragon]

The concepts of good and evil precipitate the overall GOOD (GOD) and the overall evil (DEVIL).

Because of the nature of human propensity to distinguish between helpful and harmful, metaphorical symbols form in the mind which represent beings which are held responsible for both conditions.

Such as is the case, these symbols become fixtures in human culture, and become as real as any belief permits them to become.

Children are susceptible to the stories of adults and this stage of individual development is where the belief often attaches itself to the individuals consciousness as a mindset.

In relation to Panentheism, my understanding of this natural enough consequence of ignorance is that - at the local level - GOD is indeed good, but that our learned understanding of what is 'good' has been skewered sufficiently that - in relation to a GOD existing, there is the problem of evil.

In relation to the biblical story of The Garden, the reason why the forbidden fruit is called the 'knowledge of good and evil' and not 'the knowledge of helpful and harmful' is sourced in ignorance.

In relation to our shared position - being individual self aware units - we are specifically in harms way. However we do not - necessarily - consider this to be - 'evil' because within the harmful we have discovered the helpful, and in doing so, we adapt.

In relation to the One GOD idea, the invention of the devil as that which works in opposition to what is helpful, the devils handiwork can be see in nature itself and thus the idea that something is amiss because 'why would any GOD place us within a reality which was ultimately harmful to us?'

One cannot have fingers pointed at GOD so one invents the Devil.

In relation to the Abrahamic idea of God and the Devil, a question requiring an answer is:

Q: If Satan (as the Devil) refused to believe that Adonai was the creator GOD, what reason did Satan have which convinced him this was the case?

There is scant background to the story - at least, that I am aware of - and one could thus speculate a number of possible answers.

I think the notion of Satan derived from the notion of GOD and the notion of GOD came about as the human species developed in self awareness and problem solving, and in that religions were spawned and over the centuries became more organised.

Part of this organisation necessitated explaining the coexistence of what are referred to as 'Good and Evil', spawned from observation of the helpful and harmful properties of life on earth.

In relation to arguments to do with Satan as a being who defies the corruption observed in Adonai, this further muddies the waters as it inevitably conflates good/evil helpful/harmful, ultimately manifesting confusion.

This because, both Adonai and Satan are harbingers of helpful and harmful activity which in turn signifies they are much of a muchness - shades of each other - superimposed. The same being in different guises.

This is due not only to religious invention, but also applies to secularism, in that one man's meat is another man's poison. What causes harm to one is helpful to another.

This then alludes to certain Jewish interpretations of Adonai, in that there is no 'other' in the form of Satan, but that Satan is an aspect of Adonai in that Adonai is known to bring about both blessings and curses into the lives of human beings (specifically) depending on how those human beings are behaving...in relation to Adonais agenda.

In this, according to some, the advent of creating a separate being as a rival to Adonai's agenda has caused more harm than help. Adonai's agenda is related to all the world and specifically Israel and the Jew as the main instrument Adonai's agenda is manifested through and into the world.

In relation to Panentheism, specifically with the notion that GOD is no more or less than the Earth Entity - a conscious self aware creative intelligent being who has existed in Its present form (the planet) far longer than humans and their religious ideas of 'what GOD is', have existed.
Earth Entity as a being who has been developing creatively for far longer than the human form has exited, and is - for all intent and purpose - a GOD - even be that as it may, a GOD in the making.

Forgivable for that.

Neither wholly helpful or harmful but obviously more inclined towards helpfulness due to the intense nature of Its creativity throughout Its creation - biological forms - and in that, the concept of 'good and evil' becomes somewhat redundant as it is clearly a reactive invention of human mindsets clouded in ignorance.

The Earth Entity is here for the long haul. Human instruments are the forms it is currently divested within for the specific purpose of creating something in the way of form which will prove far more compliable to that end (the long haul).

[ttruscott]

In relation to the Abrahamic idea of God and the Devil, a question requiring an answer is:

Q: If Satan (as the Devil) refused to believe that Adonai was the creator GOD, what reason did Satan have which convinced him this was the case?

Satan had no reason but only faith, his unproven hope, that he would find more long lasting happiness in rebellion to YHWH than in obedience to HIM. The Bible put it this way: James 1:14 But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. 15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death.

Satan would not accept that there was anybody 'above' him so HE attacked YHWH by redefining HIS claims as a false god and HIS promises of salvation from his sins as the manipulative lies of a false god.

For two reasons this made him eternally evil, which he knew would happen if YHWH was indeed our creator GOD which he could not be happy with:
1. Since the enslaving addiction to evil cannot be cured by the person himself as all his desires and thoughts are filtered through his addiction, by putting himself beyond YHWH's offer of salvation, he chose to become eternally sinful rather than to live with YHWH in HIS heaven under HIS rules for even a second.

2. YHWH had to hold his free will as sacrosanct and not just pop a desire to repent into his mind or the concept of our free will is ludicrous and HE would not be trustworthy.

[ttruscott]

In relation to Panentheism, specifically with the notion that GOD is no more or less than the Earth Entity - a conscious self aware creative intelligent being who has existed in Its present form (the planet) far longer than humans and their religious ideas of 'what GOD is', have existed.

Earth Entity as a being who has been developing creatively for far longer than the human form has exited, and is - for all intent and purpose - a GOD - even be that as it may, a GOD in the making.

Do you name this Earth Entity? Perhaps Gia or Ba'al Asherah?