Eternal Conscious Torment

[The Tanager]

As of right now I would consider myself an Annihilationist in regards to my view of Hell. I'm not looking to try to push Annihilationism or get into a debate between the various views. I want to look more deeply into the issues around what Hell is with other minds and I would love to hear from those who believe in the eternal conscious torment view, to the various reasons you believe it makes sense within Christianity. I'm looking to challenge my view and I was hoping you all could help me out.

[Checkpoint]

As of right now I would consider myself an Annihilationist in regards to my view of Hell. I'm not looking to try to push Annihilationism or get into a debate between the various views.

You might not, but I really can't see others who share your view keeping it to themselves and not getting into debate mode.

We shall see how this thread develops.

I want to look more deeply into the issues around what Hell is with other minds and I would love to hear from those who believe in the eternal conscious torment view, to the various reasons you believe it makes sense within Christianity. I'm looking to challenge my view and I was hoping you all could help me out.

It should make for some interesting reading.

Do share with us "the various reasons you believe it makes sense", please.

[JP Cusick]

As of right now I would consider myself an Annihilationist in regards to my view of Hell. I'm not looking to try to push Annihilationism or get into a debate between the various views. I want to look more deeply into the issues around what Hell is with other minds and I would love to hear from those who believe in the eternal conscious torment view, to the various reasons you believe it makes sense within Christianity. I'm looking to challenge my view and I was hoping you all could help me out.

I too use to be an "annihilationist" but then I learned what Paul meant by being "dead to sin" which is the second death, see Romans 6:7-11

Also Paul tells that the fires of God as in the "Lake of fire" means to clean and purify the person so that they become "dead to sin" and everyone gets saved, see 1 Corinthians 3:15-16

Jesus made the point rather clear when Jesus said that not even one (1) sinful sheep will be left out or lost.

To believe in annihilation is to believe in murder - and that is the error because the Father does not murder people, and because the Father loves His enemies.

[2ndRateMind]

Hell is the mental state of being loveless. Hell is a psychology of pure selfishness, bereft of the consolations of others who love you, yet still subject to devices of evil. You do not have to be dead to experience this, just lost. But, while you are alive, there is always the chance of redemption, for sure. I hope the same applies in the hereafter, but I cannot guarantee it, or recommend the risk.

Cheers, 2RM.

[polonius]

JP Cusick posted:

To believe in annihilation is to believe in murder - and that is the error because the Father does not murder people, and because the Father loves His enemies.

RESPONSE:
Actually, God gets others to do his murdering for him.

“This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’ (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)

[2ndRateMind]

JP Cusick posted:

To believe in annihilation is to believe in murder - and that is the error because the Father does not murder people, and because the Father loves His enemies.

RESPONSE:
Actually, God gets others to do his murdering for him.

“This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’ (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)

Actually, the Bible is quite clear on this. It does not say 'This is what God says'. It says*, 'This is what Samuel says God says'. They may or may not be the same thing.

Best wishes, 2RM.

*1 Samuel 15:1 KJV

[The Tanager]

[Replying to post 3 by JP Cusick]

[Replying to post 4 by 2ndRateMind]

This thread is aimed at trying to understand and analyze the merits of the eternal conscious torment view itself, not to be a debate between various views. Can we try to stay on target?

[JP Cusick]

JP Cusick posted:

To believe in annihilation is to believe in murder - and that is the error because the Father does not murder people, and because the Father loves His enemies.

RESPONSE:
Actually, God gets others to do his murdering for him.

Actually, the Bible is quite clear on this. It does not say 'This is what God says'. It says*, 'This is what Samuel says God says'. They may or may not be the same thing.

Best wishes, 2RM.

*1 Samuel 15:1 KJV

For 2RM = that is an excellent observation - and a great revelation.

Samuel is relaying a message and so it is not really God speaking.



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This thread is aimed at trying to understand and analyze the merits of the eternal conscious torment view itself, not to be a debate between various views. Can we try to stay on target?

In the OP you said to challenge your view - not to pamper your view.

Even though I proclaim that the real Hell per 1 Corinthians 3:15-16, is a blessed place, it still will be uncomfortable for our past sins, and then even after our eternal salvation then we all will still keep and maintain our own level of conscious torment based on our own past sins and past regrets.

We all do get saved from the ultimate punishment - but nothing will ever save us from our own guilty conscience - and yet again I see this as another blessing that we can never ever be truly exonerated from our own guilty conscience.

Every person must accept our own sins as our reality - because that is a significant part of our salvation.

[The Tanager]

In the OP you said to challenge your view - not to pamper your view.

I said challenged specifically by those who believe in the eternal conscious torment view, which is not your view. This thread is asking why does the eternal conscious torment view make sense. I'm not going to argue for annihilationism against the eternal conscious torment view. I want to understand the eternal conscious torment view better as a specific way to challenge my view in annihilationism.

[ttruscott]

To believe in annihilation is to believe in murder - and that is the error because the Father does not murder people, and because the Father loves His enemies.

Again JP, what is your biblical support for this statement?

To treat your enemies lovingly because that is your nature is NOT TO SAY HE LOVES THEM!