Eternal Conscious Torment

[The Tanager]

As of right now I would consider myself an Annihilationist in regards to my view of Hell. I'm not looking to try to push Annihilationism or get into a debate between the various views. I want to look more deeply into the issues around what Hell is with other minds and I would love to hear from those who believe in the eternal conscious torment view, to the various reasons you believe it makes sense within Christianity. I'm looking to challenge my view and I was hoping you all could help me out.

[Soar]

I BELIEVE most the following verse is addressing most Christian believers and it seems you are not even a believer.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

So much for Paul's ideas. Many people who have rejected religion end up being very religious; others who demonstrated deep spirituality, become agnostic. Paul makes pronouncements from the top of his head, it would seem.


If there exist people who are, as Paul puts it, "incapable of knowing" then punishment for them would be absurd. Welcome to the forum! Best wishes.

Most people are "incapable of knowing". Look at the world as a whole do you think Islam is capable of knowing Jesus? North Korans. etc.





No one has freewill to choose God. It was God will; not little Adams that Adam fell.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:11 (AMP) No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God.

Romans 3:11 (NCV) 11 There is no one who understands.
There is no one who looks to God for help.

Romans 3:9 (MSG) So where does that put us? Do we Jews get a better break than the others? Not really. Basically, all of us, whether insiders or outsiders, start out in identical conditions, which is to say that we all start out as sinners. Scripture leaves no doubt about it:

There's nobody living right, not even one,
nobody who knows the score, nobody alert for God.
They've all taken the wrong turn;
they've all wandered down blind alleys.
No one's living right;
I can't find a single one.
Their throats are gaping graves,
their tongues slick as mudslides.
Every word they speak is tinged with poison.
They open their mouths and pollute the air.
They race for the honor of sinner-of-the-year,
litter the land with heartbreak and ruin,
Don't know the first thing about living with others.
They never give God the time of day.
This makes it clear, doesn't it, that whatever is written in these Scriptures is not what God says about others but to us to whom these Scriptures were addressed in the first place! And it's clear enough, isn't it, that we're sinners, every one of us, in the same sinking boat with everybody else? Our involvement with God's revelation doesn't put us right with God. What it does is force us to face our complicity in everyone else's sin.

[ttruscott]

Why would God need to torture billions of loss people God created for eternity.

IF we were created as eternally self aware and self assessing spirits and
IF we were created with a free will and
IF we were able to choose by our free will to be eternally evil people and
IF some few people did so choose that which would make them eternally evil after all due warnings were given, then...
THEN GOD would be forced by our choices to banish these eternally evil people from the reality of HIS holy heavenly people to keep them free from the hate and evil of the eternally evil banished ones.

God caused the fall of all mankind so if God caused it God is going to fix it.

NO Christian denomination believes GOD caused the fall. We are pretty well in unison that HE allowed the fall but did not cause the fall.

Whether you are self described as a believer or non-believer, such statements should be followed by biblical supports for your contentions or they are a mere red herring not applicable to Christian belief in the least but maybe another made up religion.

[marco]

Look at the world as a whole do you think Islam is capable of knowing Jesus?

Apparently Muslims are perfectly capable of knowing the prophet Jesus. He is honoured by them.

And it's clear enough, isn't it, that we're sinners, every one of us, in the same sinking boat with everybody else? Our involvement with God's revelation doesn't put us right with God. What it does is force us to face our complicity in everyone else's sin.

All men may be sinners, but some are more sinners than others. I'm sure I had nothing to do with Stalin's pogrom or Hitler's Holocaust. We can be very hard on ourselves but there's a fantastic amount of good in the world. There are a few people I know whom I would not call sinners; God didn't make us gods, so we are entitled to make the odd error.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 329 by Soar]

There is no evidence god exists, the Bible isn't evidence that is for sure.

Wow - How do you define evidence? If there was no bible, would there be any evidence for YHWH at all? If not, and the bible is not evidence how do we know of YHWH??

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JJ50]

You are right the Bible is full of errors. But the Word of God which is in the Bible is amazing.

Are there any errors in the amazing word of God?

How do you distinguish between the word of God and what you consider biblical errors?

[Soar]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

The word hell is an error it is a mistranslation, Easter should be Passover another error. Words like eternal, everlasting, forever and ever should be ages, or age. There are inserted words. The Bible is written by men and with out the Spirit of truth it is just another religious book. You are a JW. any insertion of the word jehovah is error. Seriously there are many names of God in the Bible not just jehovah. The first name for God in the Bible is Elohim not jehovah for starters.

2Th 2:11
(ALT) And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie,
(ASV) And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie:
(CEV) So God will make sure that they are fooled into believing a lie.
(CLV) And therefore God will be sending them an operation of deception, for them to believe the falsehood,
(DRB)(2:10) Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:

[Soar]

[Replying to post 338 by ttruscott]

He is evident in His creation be it the stars in the heaven or the multiple things God created. God is one and everyone of His creation is singular. In Jer. 33:22 scripture declares "the host of heaven CANNOT BE NUMBERED." Galileo's invention of the telescope, such a statement was considered to be either false or at least a gross exaggeration.


Astronomers estimate that their number is equal to
1,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000 or one sextillion.

Is this an uncountable number? But as far as man can see the universe stretches on and on into infinity- he has never discovered its outer perimeter. We therefore conclude that the term "uncountable" is indeed a very appropriate description of the number of stars in the universe. Yet in Ps. 147:4 we read that "GOD telleth the number of the stars; HE calleth them all by their names." God is not only able to number the stars- these billions of billions of blazing suns- but He calls each of them by name--He has ascribed a nature, a power, a purpose to each!

What a GOD! Psalm 19, "The heavens declare the glory of God." and the firmament sheweth his handiwork.

During those star-studded nights above the plains of Judea, David looked into the heavens and there beheld the vast glittering band of stars making up our Milky Way. He was awed and knew there had to be boundless power, intelligence, and purpose behind it all He was transfixed. He so identified with that purpose that it became his passion. Everywhere he looked he could see the stamp of the divine Creator. He exclaimed in words of inspiration that sprang up from within his spirit: "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth His handiwork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge. There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world (Ps. 19:1-4).

" A free translation goes like this: "The heavens continually rehearse the glory of God; and the firmament showeth His handiwork. Day unto day pours forth, tells forth, and prophesies, and night unto night shows, imparts an

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 340 by Soar]

Thanks for sharing, so... do you feel inclined to answer any of my questions?

Are there any errors in the amazing word of God?

How do you distinguish between the [amzing] word of God and what you consider biblical errors?

[Soar]

[Replying to post 342 by JehovahsWitness]

I just did. I could never limit God to one name He has many names NOT NATURES and jehovah is an error when you use it as the JW bible does.

[JehovahsWitness]

[[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 096#902096] Seriously there are many names of God in the Bible not just jehovah.

Why did you use the word "just" ? In the English language when you modify a noun with "just" it indicates that it does in fact belong to a group but that said group also includes other elements. So if man was living in his car you could say "It isn't just a car ....it's his home" by saying "just" you are admitting it is indeed a car but there is more to it. So again why did you say "God's name isn't just Jehovah" because as it stands your sentence is saying God's name is indeed Jehovah (While implying there are also other names).

Could you explain why you said "just"? Or was it in error?