Are homosexual relations sinful?

[Mithrae]

In Australia we're currently enduring a postal vote about gay marriage, and the Christian rhetoric which has inevitably been cropping up has reminded me of some thoughts I'd initially had back in 2006.

• Tuesday, 9 May 2006
  It occurs to me that Christianity may very well have the wrong end of the stick in their view of God. If nothing else, surely what the old testament and the gospels teach us is that God is a covenant God. Jesus said that his blood was the blood of the new covenant; looking back, the Mosaic law is described as the old covenant; he made covenants also with Abraham and David. Perhaps we should not think of God as one who simply sits in the clouds handing out laws. Rather, he is a God who makes covenants with his people; fellowship in return for blessing. . . .
  
  With the people of Israel God made two covenants. The first was at Sinai, beginning with the ten commandments covering chapters 20 to 23 of Exodus. These are almost exclusively commandments of worship for God and social justice amongst the Israelites, with very little about sacrifical specifications or ritual purity. Chapter 24 describes the confirmation of this covenant and the people's agreement to abide by the terms written within the 'book of the covenant.' The second covenant was made in the lands east of the Jordan River, before Moses died and the people crossed over (Deuteronomy 29:1), and covers chapters 5 to 28 of Deuteronomy (with the earlier chapters being the preamble). Laws concerning such things as legal cases, the king, cities of refuge and warfare regulations (chapters 17 to 20) make it clear that this is essentially the constitution of the new nation of Israel.

The bible does not say that God gave any rules or commandments at all to Adam and Eve, except the bit about the tree; and similarly, Jeremiah clearly states that the new covenant to come would be "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt" (Jer. 31:31). In commenting on that passage the author of Hebrews writes "In that he says, “A new covenant,� he has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8:13).

How can it be that at one time it was "sinful" to sow a field with two kinds of seed, or wear a garment made of two kinds of cloth (Leviticus 19:19), yet Christians now would almost universally consider these to be silly and outdated concepts? Why did commands like that exist in the first place? I believe they were intended to ingrain into the Israelite people the concept of their separateness from the nations around them, to reinforce and strengthen their own national identity. But then, that same kind of practical purpose seems to obviously underlie the prohibition against same-sex relations too (or the exclusion of anyone who'd suffered genital injuries in Deut. 23:1): A small nation surrounded by enemies would likely need all its people breeding to maintain its strength. Crude and even cruel though those laws may have been, at least we might be able to glean a worthy intention behind them.

But the Christian concept of "sin" as it is usually expressed seems to be utterly blind to the fact that these were part of a covenant - an agreement - between God and Israel, one which the author of Hebrews declared to be obsolete. And according to Jeremiah the new covenant is not to be found in letters of stone or ink in a book; instead "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor or a man his brother, saying 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest" (Jer. 31:31-34). (See also my earlier thread Did apostles think they were writing the 'word of God'?)

Likewise Paul - though he himself remained hung up on homosexuality - captures the more individual nature of the New Agreement perfectly, even as he downplays the everlasting covenant of circumcision:

• Galatians 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. . . .
  13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.� 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
  
  
  Romans 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’�
  12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God. 13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.

Have Christians got the wrong idea of "sin"?

And if the essence of God's will is simply that "You shall love your neighbour as yourself," as Paul says, isn't homosexuality one of the most obvious examples in which freedom in Christ replaces the situational rules of Israel?

An example in fact where Christian attitudes often seem to be almost the opposite of love?

[Miles]

The OP is curious. It asks if homosexuality is "sinful", which implies "sin" exists in a religious sense.

Which it does.

sin1
/sin/
noun
noun: sin; plural noun: sins

...... an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.

In the secular world, it is clear there is nothing wrong with homosexuality - unless we decide to make a law against it .

And neither is it regarded as wrong within Christianity or Judaism—at least not Bible wise.
The only instance where it's wrong is "if a man lies with a male as with a woman," in which case "they shall surely be put to death." Leviticus 20:13.... Although, when women get it on with each other the Bible only finds it shameful, degrading, dishonorable, disgraceful, vile, etc., and not worth killing them for: "26 Because people did those things, God left them and let them do the shameful things they wanted to do. Women stopped having natural sex with men and started having sex with other women." Romans 1:26

In fact, the Bible doesn't say a thing about being homosexual, just doing homosexual stuff. And then the penalty isn't the same for women as it is for men.

So, are homosexual relations for which ones is put to death for qualify as sinful: a sin? My guess would be Yes. But are homosexual relations which are merely labeled shameful, degrading, dishonorable, disgraceful, or vile by various Bibles qualify as sinful: a sin? Yeah got me. I say this because when one considers that debating, dissension, contentions, anger, and crude jokes are considered to be sins by some folk then just about anything someone dislikes can be considered a sin.
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[boatsnguitars]

I can't hep but think how horrible the OT and NT are when it comes to this issue.

For thousands of years, God says, "Kill the gays". Then, around 50CE a guy starts walking town to town in a small area, saying 'Hey, maybe not kill them. I won't be more clear than that, but, whatev's".
A few people hear this - some ignore it, some don't, but at this point - this is how God Almighty has decided to change a law that was in place for thousands of years. An important change in Corporate Rules, but it's as if he wrote it on a napkin and lost it under his desk.

In the years that follow, more gay people are killed - despite God & Jesus saying to stop (or, so we are led to believe).

Then Jesus is executed.

Does the gay bashing stop? Nope. Because there's no Bible yet! Hell, some churches were still teaching false Gospels, some were using a different Canon, etc.

More gay people are executed.

Then they finally get around to making, more or less, "The Bible" hundreds of years later - as more gay people are killed.

Then, we have to wait another thousand or two for the Bible to make the rounds - as more gay people are killed.

Then, suddenly, today, we get people saying, "Oh, the Bible is very clear that we shouldn't kill gay people! It's humans fault!"

Is it? (If God exists? If God doesn't then, yes.) This is the way God chose to change the law?

Christians pretend Jesus came, said his spiel and everything changed from that day forward. But it didn't.

And even today, Christians are killing gay people! (Uganda and America)

God, in His Infinite Wisdom, has used the worst method to convey his thoughts to us. The worst.

Why, it's almost as if the Bible wasn't written by, inspired by, or even a thought of God. It's almost as if it was thought up by - gasp - Men! (Specifically homophobic men)

[Wootah]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #272]

I think it's just a lack of knowledge of history.

We can literally see in real time how brainwashed people can be about something as basic as sex.

That social pendulum will keep swinging and each side will blame the previous round of history.

I think we are all hypocrites and so since the pendulum is swinging to knock me out it does seem hypocritical to ask you not to do evil.

But Jesus knows his sheep and they know him.

So whateva.

[boatsnguitars]

It is true that Christianity is bigoted, but my question is why in the world would gay people care about what the Bible says? After all, Christians who choose that bigoted religion have no authority to do anything about homosexuality. They can (and do) call it an abomination, but like Muslim people claiming it's horrible for women to not cover their heads, who cares?

...except, we all know why it matters: because the people who hate gay people act out against gay people. They can't leave well enough alone. They need to criticize, mock, ridiculous, scorn, attack and kill gay people. Christians feel the need to act as God and punish gay people. It's not enough that they chose a bigoted religion, they need to play act as God and mete out their demonic "justice" as they see fit.

We'd be just fine if it weren't for Religion. Uganda is killing gay people today because of Jesus.

[Purple Knight]

That social pendulum will keep swinging and each side will blame the previous round of history.

I share your understanding that this is the case. If we could force an equilibrium, keep the pendulum from knocking anyone over, keep it in the middle, then in that state it would represent optimal sustainable freedom without crossing into destructive freedom.

It could ideally be kept in a position slightly to the left, where freedom is slightly destructive but this can be absorbed by the natural resilience of society. For example, we can allow people to have cars even though some of them will always drink and drive, and ultimately maim or even kill people. We can just accept that loss and use the power of government to make sure people do accept it. The total equilibrium position however would be to either make sure death from vehicles is a once-in-ablue-moon occurrence, or not allow them. People prefer a little more freedom to destroy one another than they would get in Nature and maybe society even benefits by it.

[boatsnguitars]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #272]

I think it's just a lack of knowledge of history.

We can literally see in real time how brainwashed people can be about something as basic as sex.

That social pendulum will keep swinging and each side will blame the previous round of history.

I think we are all hypocrites and so since the pendulum is swinging to knock me out it does seem hypocritical to ask you not to do evil.

But Jesus knows his sheep and they know him.

So whateva.

I have no idea what you are arguing.

[boatsnguitars]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #272]

I think it's just a lack of knowledge of history.

We can literally see in real time how brainwashed people can be about something as basic as sex.

That social pendulum will keep swinging and each side will blame the previous round of history.

I think we are all hypocrites and so since the pendulum is swinging to knock me out it does seem hypocritical to ask you not to do evil.

But Jesus knows his sheep and they know him.

So whateva.

Apparently, you are arguing that given enough time, you will be vindicated when the (fictional) pendulum swings back and homosexuality deserves a death penatly, slavery is just fine, witches are killed, and women go back into the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant.