Flood "Science"

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Peter
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Flood "Science"

Post #1

Post by Peter »

Why do Christians insist that the flood story of the Bible have a natural explanation when God Magic is a ready answer.
Religion is poison because it asks us to give up our most precious faculty, which is that of reason, and to believe things without evidence. It then asks us to respect this, which it calls faith. - Christopher Hitchens

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Because they believe their god takes extremely convoluted methods that don't completely suspend the laws of physics, but just kind of go around it in a way that makes it indistinguishable from other tribal mythos. Want striped sheep offspring? Just have your sheep looking at striped pieces of wood while mating! Want to wage a war without Yahweh Sabaoth interfering? Just use chariots of iron! Don't boil goats in their mothers' milk, don't touch the ark of the covenant, and I dare you to trim Samson's beard.

Sure, any bronze age charlatan writing stories for kids would feel right at home discussing these stories, but they aren't very challenging or engaging if they just write "and then God literally vanished them from existence." No, he has to send bears to slaughter young men, and a flood to drown the entire world. And so the average literalist Creationist Christian will decide "well, there must be evidence of events like these because God didn't use magic 100% of the time!" And since they can't actually find evidence of this, they misrepresent scientific data and try to pretend that the laws of physics are written in just such a way that the -oh, well look at that! Suddenly everything is evidence of the flood! Oh, happy day!

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Post #3

Post by Peter »

Neatras wrote: Because they believe their god takes extremely convoluted methods that don't completely suspend the laws of physics, but just kind of go around it in a way that makes it indistinguishable from other tribal mythos. Want striped sheep offspring? Just have your sheep looking at striped pieces of wood while mating! Want to wage a war without Yahweh Sabaoth interfering? Just use chariots of iron! Don't boil goats in their mothers' milk, don't touch the ark of the covenant, and I dare you to trim Samson's beard.

Sure, any bronze age charlatan writing stories for kids would feel right at home discussing these stories, but they aren't very challenging or engaging if they just write "and then God literally vanished them from existence." No, he has to send bears to slaughter young men, and a flood to drown the entire world. And so the average literalist Creationist Christian will decide "well, there must be evidence of events like these because God didn't use magic 100% of the time!" And since they can't actually find evidence of this, they misrepresent scientific data and try to pretend that the laws of physics are written in just such a way that the -oh, well look at that! Suddenly everything is evidence of the flood! Oh, happy day!
Spot on. I wonder if we could hear from a practicing theist.
Religion is poison because it asks us to give up our most precious faculty, which is that of reason, and to believe things without evidence. It then asks us to respect this, which it calls faith. - Christopher Hitchens

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JP Cusick
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Re: Flood "Science"

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Post by JP Cusick »

Peter wrote: Why do Christians insist that the flood story of the Bible have a natural explanation when God Magic is a ready answer.
That is because real miracles are completely natural, just as God is completely natural.

Child birth is natural and it is a miracle.

The Big-Bang is natural and it is the miracle of creation.

The flood story in the Bible is natural.

True miracles are not magic.
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Re: Flood "Science"

Post #5

Post by H.sapiens »

mir·a·cle
ˈmirək(ə)

noun

a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency. "the miracle of rising from the grave" synonyms: wonder, marvel, sensation, phenomenon, supernatural phenomenon, mystery

a highly improbable or extraordinary event, development, or accomplishment that brings very welcome consequences. "it was a miracle that more people hadn't been killed or injured"

an amazing product or achievement, or an outstanding example of something. "a machine which was a miracle of design" synonyms: wonder, marvel, sensation, phenomenon, supernatural phenomenon, mystery
JP Cusick wrote:
Peter wrote: Why do Christians insist that the flood story of the Bible have a natural explanation when God Magic is a ready answer.
That is because real miracles are completely natural, just as God is completely natural. (that would be a miracle, but there is no supporting evidence, just logical falacies)

Child birth is natural and it is a miracle. (no miracle there)

The Big-Bang is natural and it is the miracle of creation. (no miracle there)


The flood story in the Bible is natural. (no miracle there, no evidence of having happened, it's a miracle anyone believes that claptrap)


True miracles are not magic. (the dictionary suggests otherwise)

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Re: Flood "Science"

Post #6

Post by Peter »

JP Cusick wrote:
Peter wrote: Why do Christians insist that the flood story of the Bible have a natural explanation when God Magic is a ready answer.
Child birth is natural and it is a miracle.
I think your threshold for a "miracle" is far too low but I do appreciate the sentiment. The birth of each of my children was certainly a "miracle" to me. Thank you for responding.
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Re: Flood "Science"

Post #7

Post by JP Cusick »

H.sapiens wrote: mir·a·cle
ˈmirək(ə)

noun

(the dictionary suggests otherwise)
I know that many people like to use the dictionaries as infallible Gods, and I ready do like the dictionary Gods because they help with language - but they are not infallible.

It is true that many people agree with the dictionary Gods for the definition of "miracles" and it is partly accurate.

And I do not reject fantastic acts that look like magic as being the work of God so we can call some extraordinary things as a miracle but that is more controversial.

The planet earth spinning around at high speed perfectly in empty space and being held by invisible powers - that is a far bigger and grander miracle then any magic or miracle as told in the Bible.
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Re: Flood "Science"

Post #8

Post by H.sapiens »

JP Cusick wrote:
H.sapiens wrote: mir·a·cle
ˈmirək(ə)

noun

(the dictionary suggests otherwise)
I know that many people like to use the dictionaries as infallible Gods, and I ready do like the dictionary Gods because they help with language - but they are not infallible.

It is true that many people agree with the dictionary Gods for the definition of "miracles" and it is partly accurate.

And I do not reject fantastic acts that look like magic as being the work of God so we can call some extraordinary things as a miracle but that is more controversial.
Dictionaries are not infallible gods they are arbiters of what words mean at the moment, without them there would be no precision in language and people could claim, ex post facto, as you do, they they mean something entirely different than most other folks think that they do. Just like your oxymoron of "partly accurate" which is right up there with "partly pregnant," "seriously funny." and the ever so apropos, "clearly confused."

If you could only come up with some fantastic acts that look like magic we might be able to intelligently discuss whether they are, in fact, miracles, or simply phenomena subject to Clarke's Third Law, or even more simply logical fallacies of the incredulity and ignorant flavors that thiests like yourself so favor.
JP Cusick wrote: The planet earth spinning around at high speed perfectly in empty space and being held by invisible powers - that is a far bigger and grander miracle then any magic or miracle as told in the Bible.
'cept it's not a miracle, by any stretch of the imagination.

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Re: Flood "Science"

Post #9

Post by JP Cusick »

H.sapiens wrote:
JP Cusick wrote: The planet earth spinning around at high speed perfectly in empty space and being held by invisible powers - that is a far bigger and grander miracle then any magic or miracle as told in the Bible.
'cept it's not a miracle, by any stretch of the imagination.
I see it as a miracle, and to repeat - it is a bigger miracle than anything told in the Bible.

Not only is it perfectly spinning in empty space, but the gravity is an invisible force stretching out from the Sun to hold our earth in place, and the other force of the magnetism which protects the earth is invisible too, so what more can one ask of a grand spectacular miracle than that?

This could even be seen as one heck of a magic trick.

Calling our solar system as "natural" is a huge stretch of that word.

As to the "Clarke's Third Law" ~ the solar system is not advanced technology.
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Re: Flood "Science"

Post #10

Post by Neatras »

[Replying to JP Cusick]

The orbit of our planet is entirely natural. It follows a mathematical principle that allows for all sorts of different orbits. Some are unstable, some cause collisions, and some cause stable orbits. The fact that planets follow stable orbits is just a demonstration that, statistically, there are variable outcomes and Earth ended up with one of those outcomes. What is unnatural about that?

Go ahead, move the goalposts and say "the fact that there is a chance of stable orbit AT ALL is a miracle!" Stating that, however, would be a fallacy.

Onto your pitiful definition of miracle. By declaring all fundamental forces as miraculous, you strip the word miracle of any USEFUL meaning. Useful in discussion, debate, or description. The only meaning you inject is a sense of awe, incredulity, or rapture. The first is understandable, but unconvincing. The second is a result of poor understanding of the natural world. The third is an unreliable feeling that theists TRAIN THEMSELVES TO FEEL, and then declare that feeling as decisive or compelling. Additionally, it is unreliable because we have natural explanations for that feeling, and can even manipulate it using a simple act of physical forces. I won't pretend to know which of these three reasons you use, they are all irrational when used to define literally anything and everything as miraculous.

So, please demonstrate you understand what I have written by describing my post in your own words to avoid miscommunication. To summarize: Your definition of miracle is meaningless, and your personal meaning or justification is likely based on fallacious principles. Additionally, your depiction of the natural world is uninformed and arrogantly ignorant of what intellectuals and scientists actually know to be true.

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