Example of Creation or Design

[rikuoamero]

In the 'Ask a Group' subforum, the following question was posed to creationists and/or intelligent design advocates.

Creationists and proponents of Intelligent Design are often critical of the theory of evolution. But their criticism leaves their opponents with the feeling that they don't actually understand evolution.

Question for Creationists and proponents of Intelligent Design: can you explain what is meant by evolution?

User 2timothy316 has gotten into a discussion with me, and in one of his most recent responses to me, where he opined

Because creation/intelligent can be observed

I asked for an example

Where? When? Can you show me a creature being designed (not by humans) and show me the designer?

So the topic for discussion here is for 2timothy316 (or anyone really) to give examples of what they think is creation/intelligent design (not by humans, since what's the point of looking at examples from humans?) of lifeforms, and of the designer/creator.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 66 by rikuoamero]

There is no evidence that birds are the designer, yet that doesn't prove there isn't a designer.

It's not his job to prove there isn't a designer. The OP asks for examples of design. You claimed bird eggs are an example of design. Now it is up to you to prove that this is indeed an example of design.

And because they don't they don't have anything for me to observe. I base my reasoning on what I can observe. Don't you?

Is the egg designed? Remember the definition of something designed is the product of something that shows it serves a 'purpose'.

Can you perhaps link us to this definition?

I will be happy to Google that for you.

https://www.google.com/search?newwindow ... nnRUeeTLkY

2. purpose, planning, or intention that exists or is thought to exist behind an action, fact, or material object.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 69 by 2timothy316]

There is no evidence that birds are the designer, yet that doesn't prove there isn't a designer.

Correct, which is why I asked you, at least twice that I can remember, to give me an example of a candidate for who or what could be a designer. I gave you the scenario.
You. Me. Two birds (one male, one female), locked room. The birds mate, the female lays an egg (or eggs).
You had previously ruled out the birds as being candidates for 'designer of egg', and obviously neither you nor I are candidates (do I even need to formally ask you whether or not you are a 'designer of bird eggs'?)
At this point...what's left in the room that is a possible candidate?
Nothing, that's what. There is nothing.
Oh wait...that's right. There is the mysterious phantom spirit god thing that you would inevitably have had to trot out (or at least you would have, if you had not seen where I was going with this and thus not done it). The thing that is invisible, undetectable, immaterial, but somehow is still able to interact with the material world.
That thing.

Is the egg designed? Remember the definition of something designed is the product of something that shows it serves a 'purpose'.

Things that have purposes do not necessarily have to be designed. I can find a rock and give it a purpose, but this doesn't mean the rock was designed.

The definition of random is something that the is product of something that shows 'no purpose'.

If I google "dictionary random", none of the results I get mention 'no purpose', apart from thefreedictionary.com
Odd that.

If we are basing our final choice on if something is designed or not by what we observe, then the only conclusion that makes sense is that the bird egg was designed.

The conclusion I make is that the conclusion YOU make cannot be justified. You say there is a designer, but conveniently enough, you do not say who or what this designer is. You cannot point to it or even give an example of a candidate.

If the egg showed no purpose birds would quickly become extinct because their eggs would give no protection for their young as the egg would serve no purpose.

Have you ever seen babies or toddlers 'designing' something only for it to ultimately have no purpose? We can still have agents with minds putting things together only for there to be no purpose in it.

We can give purpose to all sorts of things; this doesn't mean that the thing was designed with those purposes in mind. How do you know that this mysterious phantom designer of yours intended for bird eggs to be used to protect bird young while they incubate? Maybe he has some other use in mind entirely, only you have no way to figure that out.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 71 by 2timothy316]

And because they don't they don't have anything for me to observe. I base my reasoning on what I can observe. Don't you?

Please clarify what you mean by this. It was you who introduced the example of the bird egg...and yet somehow you don't have anything for you to observe?
I'm not sure what it is you said here.

I will be happy to Google that for you.

https://www.google.com/search?newwindow ... on+of+desi...

2. purpose, planning, or intention that exists or is thought to exist behind an action, fact, or material object.

Maybe it's because it's google, but when I clicked that link here is what I got, word for word.

design
dɪˈzʌɪn/Submit
noun
1.
a plan or drawing produced to show the look and function or workings of a building, garment, or other object before it is made.
"he has just unveiled his design for the new museum"
synonyms: plan, blueprint, drawing, scale drawing, sketch, outline, map, plot, diagram, delineation, draft, depiction, representation, artist's impression, scheme, model, prototype, proposal
"an architect submitted a design for the offices"
2.
a decorative pattern.
"pottery with a lovely blue and white design"
synonyms: pattern, motif, device; More
verb
1.
decide upon the look and functioning of (a building, garment, or other object), by making a detailed drawing of it.
"a number of architectural students were designing a factory"
synonyms: plan, draw plans of, draw, sketch, outline, map out, plot, block out, delineate, draft, depict More
Notice that your second definition differs from the second definition I got.

If I do a CTRL F search for purpose, I get one hit, this time from Merriam Webster.

-----
Now I would like to ask you this. Is your reasoning something like this?
Object has purpose.
Objects that are designed have purposes.
Therefore...all objects are designed

Why is it you are not factoring in the possibility that an object can have a purpose but no designer, or can have a purpose given to it by someone or something not its designer?
As with your bird eggs, the birds give a purpose to the egg in that it incubates their young, but it doesn't necessarily follow that the egg was designed.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 72 by rikuoamero]

The OP is asking for an example of design and not to identify a designer.

The oxford dictionary says of the word design: "Purpose or planning that exists behind an action, fact, or object."
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/design

I observe the egg to have purpose thus it is an example of design.

If a person is intellectually honest then they will see that the egg is an example of design. If they are intellectually dishonest they will ignore this simple observation. Example: Like the person that ignores climate change though the entire world is spending billions on ways to keep raising sea water out of their city. Their dogma is more important than what they are seeing.

I know where intellectually dishonest discussions lead...no where. If this is what I see, I will lose interest in this thread.

[marco]

Is the egg designed?

Interesting question. Different birds have eggs of different colours and shapes. The curlew, which lays its eggs on the ground, has pointed eggs that will not roll too far. The lark and lapwing, building their nest on the earth, have colours that blend with the surroundings. One might suppose that a provident God so designed everything. Or one may suppose that early larks had variety in colour but the ones that prevailed were the ones whose eggs were hardest to notice. Larks, incidentally, never rise from their nests nor descend directly over them. Is this too a whisper from God? Or an evolved safety mechanism?

Deducing design can lead to wondrous suppositions. We have here in Britain the Giant's Causeway and Fingal's Cave. One looks as if it had been constructed by a giant and it seems to have been built with a purpose. The other has perfectly formed hexagonal pillars. The hexagon is one of the few geometric shapes that allow tiling of space, so one could deduce a giant cleverly formed the basalt rock into this useful shape.

Or we could simply see it as one of many intriguing tricks of nature. It would be a very dull chaos that produce no happy sequences. We happen to be one of them, which is nice. And when the first spark of order came about, so too did progress. Man has come a long way, like the lark.

[2timothy316]

Deducing design can lead to wondrous suppositions. We have here in Britain the Giant's Causeway and Fingal's Cave. One looks as if it had been constructed by a giant and it seems to have been built with a purpose.

From what I gathered in an earlier post, non-living examples where not acceptable as an example of design or evolution as they do not evolve like living things do. An egg is not made and then given purpose like what you suggest here. The egg appears to have been made to meet a purpose unlike Fingal's Cave. Which Fingal's cave is beautiful BTW. Was it designed? Well, some might say that the physics that made it possible was designed. That is for a whole other discussion. First let decide if the egg was designed. If we come to a conclusion about the egg then many other answers will come.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 74 by 2timothy316]

The OP is asking for an example of design and not to identify a designer.

From the OP, found by simply scrolling back up to the top of this page...

So the topic for discussion here is for 2timothy316 (or anyone really) to give examples of what they think is creation/intelligent design (not by humans, since what's the point of looking at examples from humans?) of lifeforms, and of the designer/creator.

The oxford dictionary says of the word design: "Purpose or planning that exists behind an action, fact, or object."
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/design

I observe the egg to have purpose thus it is an example of design.

This logic works only if everyone agrees that oxford is authoritative, that it cannot be wrong. They are not proscriptive but rather descriptive.

I observe the egg to have purpose thus it is an example of design.

But in the real world, you have not yet fulfilled the other part of my OP. Shown the designer.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 74 by 2timothy316]

The OP is asking for an example of design and not to identify a designer.

From the OP, found by simply scrolling back up to the top of this page...

So the topic for discussion here is for 2timothy316 (or anyone really) to give examples of what they think is creation/intelligent design (not by humans, since what's the point of looking at examples from humans?) of lifeforms, and of the designer/creator.

I sit corrected.

The oxford dictionary says of the word design: "Purpose or planning that exists behind an action, fact, or object."
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/design

I observe the egg to have purpose thus it is an example of design.

This logic works only if everyone agrees that oxford is authoritative, that it cannot be wrong. They are not proscriptive but rather descriptive.

This is what I mean by heading down the road of being intellectually dishonest. What do you find authoritative when it comes to the English language? Or do you set yourself as the only one with the authority to say what is and what isn't. What is the word for 'something with a purpose' in your lexicon? Even when I use a
thesaurus one the synonyms for 'on purpose' is 'designed'. One of the antonyms is 'unplanned'. What do you make this knowledge?

I observe the egg to have purpose thus it is an example of design.

But in the real world, you have not yet fulfilled the other part of my OP. Shown the designer.

Are you saying that I have fulfilled 50% of the OP and that you and I can agree from here on out that something in biology can be accepted as being designed? If so then I'd be happy to go on to the next 50%.

[Bust Nak]

But that is not according to the theory and that is not what is being observed in nature. Please review post 29.

Not sure what you mean, I've looked through post29 and the two articles you linked agrees with each other - observed in nature matches exactly with the theory.

There is no different word for random. It's either random or it's not.

Right, mutations are random and evolution is not random. That's not so hard to understand is it?

Why are all the mutations beneficial for both bird and flower when the theory doesn't support such behavior?

Loaded question cannot be answered. The mutations are beneficial for both bird and flower and just like the theory said it would.

The mutations are meeting a purpose are they not?

No, the word purpose implies forethought. The beaks of the birds have developed in size and shape so that they pollinate the flowers more effectively, while the flowers have developed in color and shape to fit the evolving bird beaks more easily, and that's that.

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 66 by rikuoamero]

There is no evidence that birds are the designer, yet that doesn't prove there isn't a designer.

It's not his job to prove there isn't a designer. The OP asks for examples of design. You claimed bird eggs are an example of design. Now it is up to you to prove that this is indeed an example of design.

And because they don't they don't have anything for me to observe. I base my reasoning on what I can observe. Don't you?

Have you ever observed God creating anything?