rikuoamero wrote:
Can you quote from somewhere where this has happened to you, or you have seen it happen DI?
It's one thing if the person has got the term agnostic confused with atheist (and according to Paul, us atheists are the scum of the earth!)...at least then they'd have somewhat of a leg to stand on (not a good one of course, but something at least).
Has someone said it in full knowledge of what an agnostic is?
It appears to me that the person making the remarks has an extremely warped and confused idea of what agnostic means.
Here are some quotes:
William wrote:
It is not a problem. You may simply actually BE an atheist secular materialist who wants others to have the impression he is 'agnostic'. People can make up their own minds, especially as you don't think you have any responsibility to help others not be confused about your stated position in relation to your actual expression
I guess in the above he's actually just accusing me of being a liar and proclaiming that I'm not an agnostic at all.
William wrote:
As to your understanding of what being an agnostic is, I used to think in similar terms but came to the realization that a true agnostic position is neutral and does not lean one way or the other.
You specifically lean one way more than the other, and in that you clearly are not what you say you are.
But you obviously also haven't come to that realization as yet. (Either that, or you are purposefully being pretentious/satirical.)
Now he appears to be accusing me of simply not even having the realization of what I actually know or believe to know.
William wrote:
All agnostics lean more toward supporting strong atheism, materialism, secularism etc, because agnosticism truly is a subset of atheism.
Now he's making a blanket accusation toward all agnostics. Accusing them of actually being closet atheists, materialists, secularists, etc.
In other words, he basically accusing all agnostics of either being liars or clueless of what they actually believe.
William wrote:
All I am attempting to do with you is to get you to understand that you are not arguing from the position of agnostic at all. You are simply using that as a device to preach your true position of hard atheism. Therein is the pretentiousness.
Here he is specifically accusing me of being 'pretentious' (
this actually sparked the subject title of this thread) and also accusing me of being dishonest and having an actual agenda to preach "hard atheism" (
something I have NEVER done on these forums by the way) In fact, I think most atheists on this forum can back me up that I don't loan hardcore support to "Hard Atheism". I certainly recognize that a position of secular materialism may possibly be the true nature of reality, but that's hardly "preaching it".
William wrote:
If you - or anyone - were a true agnostic, you would remain solidly neutral in support of not knowing so cannot say either way, and cannot support either strong atheism or any type of theism.
What exactly is he suggesting here? That an agnostic needs to just shut up and sit in the corner and not entertain or voice an opinion on any philosophical worldview?
I say this is utterly absurd. To acknowledge that some arguments for secular materialism appear to have merit, and that some arguments for mystical theism cannot necessarily be ruled out, does not violate the position of agnosticism.
The agnostic is simply acknowledging that EITHER worldview might possibly be true.
Even an agnostic recognizes that SOME worldview must necessarily be true. All the agnostic is saying is that he or she doesn't yet have sufficient information to settle the question.
Surely agnostics should be permitted to comment how much merit they see in a given philosophical worldview. This doesn't mean that they are taking the position to know that it's true, or even believe that it's true. So they are still agnostic. They are simply commenting on how much merit they see in a given argument.
The idea that agnostics need to either become theists or hardcore atheists, or else go sit in the corner and be quiet is utter nonsense.
And that if they comment on the merits of any theistic or atheistic argument then they are being "
pretentious" about being an agnostic, is also utter nonsense.
Obviously I don't claim to be agnostic on every question. I make it crystal clear that I don't believe in Hebrew Mythology and I am as certain that it is false as a Christian is certain that Greek Mythology is false.
So in that sense I am a hardcore "atheist" when it comes to the Abrahamic myths. But there's nothing pretentious or dishonest about that. I make that crystal clear to anyone who is interested. I don't claim to be agnostic with respect to Hebrew mythology.
