Rational and civil debate between members of all religions and world views

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:15 pm
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Which is it?

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Matthew 15.24

Quote:
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."


or

Matthew 28.19

Quote:
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


What was Jesus mission, his intended audience?

How does one reconcile the two seemingly contradictory statements?

Is the "Risen Christ" on the same page as the pre-Easter, "historical Jesus"?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:25 pm
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Re: Which is it?

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[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Simple. He was sent to the lost Sheep of Israel. Then before He ascended He sent his disciples to the utmost parts of the earth.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:31 pm
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Re: Which is it?

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Elijah John wrote:

Matthew 15.24
Quote:
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."


or

Matthew 28.19
Quote:
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


What was Jesus mission, his intended audience?

How does one reconcile the two seemingly contradictory statements? Is the "Risen Christ" on the same page as the pre-Easter, "historical Jesus"?


Some of the lost sheep of Israel (figure for elect, His good seed) are scattered among the Gentiles.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:34 pm
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Re: Which is it?

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[Replying to post 3 by ttruscott]

Um... Psalm 51:5....

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:47 pm
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Re: Which is it?

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Petrameansrock wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Simple. He was sent to the lost Sheep of Israel. Then before He ascended He sent his disciples to the utmost parts of the earth.


To the lost sheep of Israel, in the diaspora. It was their understanding that this meant hereditary children of Israel. That is why they were surprised when they heard that Cornelius and the Gentile followers of Paul were accepting the good news that included an understanding of the atonement dilemma of Israel.

I think that Yeshua was familiar with the concept of the mixed multitude. However, it was necessary that He limit Himself to work in a Torah based society first, and make limited exceptions for those Gentiles who showed that they understood that social structure. The reason for this is because it was necessary to show an example of a proper life in a Torah based society. I think is like a chess champion showing how chess is played to local chess players, before instructing his audience to share those lessons with chess players from other countries, knowing that non-chess players will probably take notice and take up the discipline.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:53 pm
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Re: Which is it?

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[Replying to post 5 by bluethread]

I can see your point that the disciples may have misinterpreted Jesus by thinking to go to the Jews in the utmost parts of the earth. But I do not believe that was Jesus's meaning at all. And this misunderstanding was quickly rectified.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:13 pm
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Re: Which is it?

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Petrameansrock wrote:

[Replying to post 5 by bluethread]

I can see your point that the disciples may have misinterpreted Jesus by thinking to go to the Jews in the utmost parts of the earth. But I do not believe that was Jesus's meaning at all. And this misunderstanding was quickly rectified.


Well, we have several examples of Gentiles becoming part of Israel in HaTorah, most notably the mixed multitude that came out of Egypt. The important thing is not so much the heredity, but the understanding of the culture. After all, how were those disciples to determine who was and who was not a lost Israelite. It had been a significant time since the northern tribes had been dispersed throughout the nations. One could do as Paul did and first go to the synagogue, if there is one. Ttruscott's group and the British/Israeli types take this hereditary search to a bit of an extreme IMO, but at least they understand the concept.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:46 pm
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Re: Which is it?

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Petrameansrock wrote:

[Replying to post 3 by ttruscott]

Um... Psalm 51:5....


Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. It is generally accepted to be bad form just quoting verses without saying why they were quoted or what the quoter means by quoting them...

What do the lost sheep among the Gentiles have to do with our being born after our choosing to be sinful?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:44 am
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Re: Which is it?

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Elijah John wrote:

What was Jesus mission, his intended audience?

How does one reconcile the two seemingly contradictory statements?


The first is the mission of Jesus, the second is the mission of disciples of Jesus. Disciples and Jesus are not exact same, so there is no contradiction.

But I think the word mission is not good in this, because Jesus just says, he was sent to Jews, which is how it is, he was sent to among Jews. It doesn’t mean his message is only for Jews, only that he was physically sent to that place and time.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:30 am
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Re: Which is it?

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Petrameansrock wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Simple. He was sent to the lost Sheep of Israel. Then before He ascended He sent his disciples to the utmost parts of the earth.



The lost sheep must have done a fair bit of travelling if the disciples had to go to the North Pole, Antarctica and remote parts of the Amazon jungle, not to mention China.

I assume that since Christ did not ascend into the sky to some physical heaven between Earth and Moon one should take "ascend" metaphorically. If Christ had conquered gravity he would either be orbiting Earth now in an elliptical path or he'd have plunged in a hyperbolic path into space and presumably is still travelling. Literal interpretations cause big problems.

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