Why punish those who don't believe?

[marco]

God seems to be harsh on unbelievers. Christ praises those who believe without any evidence for believing. Allah is horrendously brutal towards those who don't believe.

It's not as if a father can reprimand his son for not believing he exists. He can reprimand his son for misbehaving.

It seems that punishment for disbelief is a human artifice to get people to fall in line.

Is it just for God to reprimand disbelief?

Is it not perhaps humans who put words into God's mouth?

[ttruscott]

Ttruscott posted:

The fact that hell is tormenting is not a PLAN of YHWH but a FACT of that place apart from HIM, as being apart from the blessings of GOD that humans think are the nature of reality. They are banished outside of our reality and GOD says that will be tormenting. Since I do not think that loving kindness can create EXTRA torment, all torment must be a natural torment of that situation. I trust GOD to do the best for everyone HE can, ever the demons, MATTHEW 5:45...for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust.

RESPONSE:

(1) Who created “hell�? Who crated “torment�? How then can they not be a plan of God if they did not exist until he created them?

MY supposition is that our physical universe is not infinite so it has an edge and the outer darkness is outside that edge, outside of our reality completely and therefore did not have to be created for any reason but simply was by our reality being created non-infinite.

I also contend that this outer darkness has certain qualities and lacks the qualities of our reality such as the blessings of GOD that we think are natural but spring from HIS goodwill such that its natural effect on anyone in there is best called a torment.

(2) Only “tormenting�? No fires in hell, then?

I tend to think the fires are figurative for their real suffering.

(3) And if a young boy (over the age of seven and thus has the “use of reason) enjoys an impure thought and doesn’t get a chance to confess it, the God (who “loves� him) sends him to hell where he will be "tormented" for all eternity? Because God loves him?

Do you really believe that? Did you read it in the Bible?

Please don't put words in my mouth I have never said... I am not a Catholic and I do not accept this doctrine. I suggest no person is damned by anything they do on earth though they are judged on that to prove their being reprobate but only by their choosing a relationship with YHWH as HIS eternal reprobate enemy in sin.

Only those who have sinned the unforgivable sin and who are then born on earth as sinners condemned already will end in hell. All other sinners are HIS elect who chose to rebel, probably against the call for the judgement day against the non-elect reprobate who sinned the unforgivable sin by rejecting YHWH as a false god and a liar.

[Caltacka]

[Replying to post 50 by polonius.advice]

I'll just leave this as a signature.I don't intend to offend or get people angry.So if anything is said that offends please do say so that I can avoid doing it again in the future...What I say is simply my opinion and what I know (from the very little I know) And To anyone who see's flaws in my statements please I would be greatly in your dept if you could point them out to me,^^ Though I can't promise I'll simply accept them...

(My apologies polonius.advice ...I don't mean to be singling you out,I'd intended this for both you and ttruscott But I am sadly unable to figure out quite how to do that.)

Though let me start off with this.before I move onto anything else.

Religion in general only has two cases.And that's there is a God,or there is no God. Either Theist's are Totally right,or Atheist's are totally right. No if ands or buts. Lol unless Theist's And Atheist's are wrong,well then I guess Agnostics Are on the right track ^^

So I as a theist,if I'm right.I Am honestly out of my mind if I don't follow what I believe as a whole..Every time I sin or do something that contradicts what I believe,is like saying (I don't believe in what I waste my whole life doing)...So if a person is debating against a certain faction or religion,and doesn't take into consideration the Whole of that faction or belief. Then the debate is pointless.....Your setting yourself up to "win" or in the theist's case Loose.

Though even still your "winning" is just a comfort,You haven't actually advanced at all.

If I came before you with a small object and said (How much do you bet it'll fall to the ground when I let go?-I think it won't but that's just me.) only for you to put your entire life on the line,while I stand there Triumphantly letting it go,only to reveal I had a string tied to the ceiling allowing it to float. I can guarantee if I tried to take anything you had,you'd bash my head in...Hence I don't feel the need to say more on that topic.

Anyway in regards to your statements.

"

(3) And if a young boy (over the age of seven and thus has the “use of reason) enjoys an impure thought and doesn’t get a chance to confess it, the God (who “loves� him) sends him to hell where he will be "tormented" for all eternity? Because God loves him?

Do you really believe that? Did you read it in the Bible?

"
((please keep in mind this is simply my opinion on the matter,from my position, from my belief...I deeply respect other opinions,it's just that I simply have not found or have been made aware through history/science that some claims are true... or at least the way I interpreted the context being used in some evidence...))

So for me the last statement says it all.

No I don't believe that.And No I didn't read it in the bible because that's not really what was being said...(again as far as it appears to me.)

Just because there's sin on the soul doesn't mean that they are immediately sent to hell.You must understand there are other things to take into consideration...

Like as a catholic I must believe that people have to be baptized to enter heaven.But most people outside of the church think there is only one type of baptism and that's the ceremony. Were actually there are three types... Water...(the ceremony) Want...(quite obviously wanting to be baptized and not being able too.) or three, Blood...(You die for the faith."and or more specifically,someone else kills you...Just a note...It by no means gives permission to kill others or do harm.)

And all that is not even Considering Purgatory.Let alone the child's innocence..You simply cannot say that Every child of seven years of age has full use of reason...Nor does the church say that kids are going to hell if they do things when they're seven.(as far as I'm aware it's simply a base much like we say the adolescent stage and all that stuff starts at such an such an age. We are guessing,and like the weather channel,we are often wrong lol. )

If you are debating over whether or not someone is going to heaven or hell, You must understand,God as the type of being he is,would look at everything... He wouldn't just say to a person who's lived a perfect life,but was a pig and took too many cookies off grandma's table,that One Time! xD and tell them ..your going to hell...because you ate that last cookie...And You knew you shouldn't have you sun of a biscuit! lol

...

No fire in hell?

I don't recall anything like that? xD Unless the lava is just so hot it evaporates them before any kind of fire can start.



(also please excuse some of my humor,I love to throw it in with any writing I do,and Love it even more when other people give it back.(^^)
...

(1) Who created “hell�? Who crated “torment�? How then can they not be a plan of God if they did not exist until he created them?

...

Well...God did create everything...But according to what we believe,everything evil is simply an opposite or backlash of the good he Created...So the best way I can think to explain,is this.

(There's absolutely nothing... There's no world no light no darkness no Matter.....Then bang! a light pops up and matter is created. Well overtime the light ran out of electricity So then it was just dark... See Darkness it'self is just really a lack of light. Like when an artist wants a dark colour (say for instance on a computer drawing program like paint)He simply takes away the light value and he get's what he wants... So Hell or is just a lack of heaven...

Like even in a lot of parables Christ gives He talks about throwing people "Out" That gives me the assumption he's not so much locking them up in a cell to suffer and starve,but rather the good's just all in one place and everyone wants to be happy but not everyone is willing be good...No one is just Happy killing people..killing is removing...They'd be "happy" if the people they kill just would never existed in the first place..So see you have to be good,and want to be good in order to be happy. It's not just a cat poster, even if a king ( a Royal person) steals from his subjects he still has to worry about them coming back to hurt him...

(And believe me when I say this, I think it's crazy as heck too that God claims to love us and allows a the pits of hell to exist,but again the whole picture)

Saying that he doesn't love is would be like Some random guy You never met came up to you and Just Gave You! Like Gave YOU! these amazing Coffee grains that would last you for 90 years,and they where Just Perfect! Like it could not get any better,and then after the 90 years of enjoying the coffee You start cursing him because You want it so bad but there's none left...( I personally feel this way everytime my brother or parents make coffee,because they make it for me out of the kindness of their heart,But they drink it all gosh darnit! XD)

Finally as far as sticking someone in Hell for Eternity

...I really can't say I understand why they have to suffer the whole time.( You'd think that after a million years they'ed have served their time.)but If I have anything to give on the topic,it would simply be How many People in this world ( and I'm talking about like seriously forgiving people) would say to a murder who pleaded to him after killing a man (ok your free) and then after being freed the murderer commit the same crime,(Repeat this every 5 years over a hundred year period) How many would let that guy out again.?
I mean yeah He's stuck in a cell,but if I let him out He's just going to kill another person.

And if your Atheist That whole paragraph just got ten times times worse because the people the murder is killing are Not coming back,Not Guilty of anything and Not even involved in this "forgiving persons actions" yet because of them all those people are gone....FOR good..

So my thought is Yes it's not fun that those people suffer.& Yes at some point they do actually pay their dues...But at the same time Is not God Merciful to Not let these people out who want nothing more than to destroy us and make us miserable... (when people murder steal do more things "that I will not mention for the sake of any guest viewers"...They are not there to make anyone happy...they are not there to change or be good,they are there to take advantage of and abuse. if over the course of 100 years you can change then by God I'll stand by your side,call you my brother and lay my life down for you. but if over that time you cannot even show signs of wanting to change.I can't say or do much else.)

Stand by your arguments if you feel them to be right...but I'm just saying,if you think people who are supposed to be in hell,"who might actually not be...no one can honestly say they know." But if you think those people should be let free,then I can't put it any lighter than, it is on whoever's hands that free's them,whatever those people do...Though my God,I wish they wouldn't do anything wrong and would be good,I'm sad to say It's not likely...

But anyway. My apologies for the long message... I hope it was of at least some value...If not,then ain't nothin Changed!

[Bust Nak]

You will have to expand on this, as your simply one-liner does not convey anything I can respond to.

Okay, here goes:

There is a big problem when you said "I myself made a choice not to believe..." you are incorrect, you did not make a choice not to believe, because one literally cannot choose to believe one way or the other, you do not have that ability. You are either convinced by something or, not convinced by something. You had no choice in the matter, instead your disbelief was something to happened to you.

[Bust Nak]

It is that way because HE HIMself is the measure of all right...

So pick a different measure?

Therefore IT IS a logical necessity that rejecting God as a liar implies that one has chosen to sin...

IF a person who has rejected HIS offer of salvation chooses sin and they do become sinful, their sinfulness is eternal.

So rejecting God automatically makes you a sinner, that much is easy to get, what makes it eternal though?

What I have described here IS NOT A LEGAL SYSTEM OR CONSTRUCT!! It is the way of reality as told to us by YHWH! What happens to people who chose to be sinners is under legal construct and under YHWH's control as being the best HE can do for the demons given their choices.

I don't understand what you are saying here. You have not described a legal construct, but what happens under legal construct... What exactly is the distinction?

The fact that hell is tormenting is not a PLAN of YHWH but a FACT of that place apart from HIM, as being apart from the blessings of GOD that humans think are the nature of reality. They are banished outside of our reality and GOD says that will be tormenting. Since I do not think that loving kindness can create EXTRA torment, all torment must be a natural torment of that situation. I trust GOD to do the best for everyone HE can, ever the demons, MATTHEW 5:45...for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust.

That does not gel with omnipotence. If torment is not his plan, and he wants the best for everyone, then change the nature of that place. That God hasn't done that, is enough to convince you that it is impossible to make hell any better?

[ttruscott]

That does not gel with omnipotence. If torment is not his plan, and he wants the best for everyone, then change the nature of that place. That God hasn't done that, is enough to convince you that it is impossible to make hell any better?

Now this question interests me. It is new to me... Like all my beliefs I am probably going to change my mind about my answer so I will not speak definitively about it but it seems to me that HE must be held back from doing this for some reason since HE would if HE could, as you say.

The only thing I can think of off the top is that maybe to be involved with the outer darkness in that way would be to bring it into our reality (with HIM as the bridge, so to speak), if HIS reality is our reality.

My whole commitment to this banishment depends upon the meaning of the doctrine found in the symbolism of the leaven in the Exodus and the passover, Ex 12:17-20.

Leaven is used to refer to bad doctrine, Mark 8:15 And He was giving orders to them, saying, "Watch out! Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.".

It is a symbol of pernicious influence: Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. and 1 Corinthians 5:5-7 Your boasting is not good Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? How big is the whole lump - does it extend to the limits of our created reality?

Surely this symbolism of leaven tells us that all sinful, evil doctrine and hostility to YHWH must be removed before the heavenly state of marriage can be initiated or its pernicious effect will sooner or later corrupt even all of heaven given that some people must be eternally sinful or hell would be empty. Since they are said to be removed, banished as it were, then it makes sense to me that such a banishment may only be effective if it is completely divorced and separate in reality from our reality.

So if HIS involvement with this removed reality would bring it to our reality then I can see how HE must never do that. I'll think and pray about this for awhile...

[1213]

God seems to be harsh on unbelievers.

If you speak about the Bible God, I don’t see that to be true, because it is said:

If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.
John 12:47-48

The judgment is based on this:

This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:19-21

And eternal life is for righteous:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

That is why I think belief is not crucial, righteousness is and it is like right understanding and attitude, which makes person do right actions.