Matthew 28:19

[Petrameansrock]

So this scripture is the reason almost every major denomination baptizes in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is also a major argument for the Trinity. But as we have seen in the past with 1 John, there are instances where scripture has been touched by man to promote Trinitarian doctrine. My question is do you think this scripture is valid or invalid? I know we have a lot of people who aren't Trinitarians on here, so that's why I ask.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 29 by JehovahsWitness]

I'm gonna need some citations then. Not that I don't believe you but I didn't find that when I went through and looked at his writings.

In this particular post I presented the same about of evidence as you did. Are you allowed to present zero evidence but I cannot, is that it? You get to say which were direct quotes and which were not without any documentation or proof but I cannot do the same?

I'm gonna need some citations FROM YOU. Not that I don't believe you but I didn't find that when I went through and looked at his writings.

[Petrameansrock]

[Replying to post 31 by JehovahsWitness]

Sorry, I will get my citation. One moment.

[Petrameansrock]

[Replying to post 32 by Petrameansrock]

The writings of Eusebius, the Bishop of Caesarea (also called Eusebius Pamphylius) provide a unique study in the beginning of the Church. He is called the father of Church History due to his extensive writings on the subject. These writings are still widely published and read. In all, there are some nine writings we wish to examine. The reason for this examination being primarily due to the way he rendered Matthew 28:19. Within his writings it is found in three forms.
bullet Form 1. "Go disciple ye all the nations" (7 times)
bullet Form 2. "Go disciple ye all the nations in my name" (17 times)
bullet Form 3. The traditional form, or Textus Receptus, KJV (5 times)

Of the three forms, "Form 2" is found most often. Seventeen times Eusebius quotes Matthew in this second form. Seven times it is found in "Form 1," and then five times in "Form 3."
The most significant of these quotes are the seventeen found in "Form 2." The reason the 5 in "Form 3" are not more significant is that most are of disputed origin, (even within Theophania) with them all believed to have been composed after the Trinitarian debates at the council of Nicea, or even possibly by another author.

So thus our focus will be upon those seventeen times in which he quotes Matthew 28:19 as "Go disciple ye all nations in my name." Here is how Eusebius used this passage in his writings.

The Proof of the Gospel
"Whereas He, who conceived nothing human or mortal, see how truly he speaks with the voice of God, saying in these very words to those disciples of His, the poorest of the poor : ’Go forth, and make disciples of all the nations.’ ‘But how,’ the disciples might reasonably have answered the Master, ‘can we do it?’… But while the disciples of Jesus were most likely either saying thus, or thinking thus, the Master solved their difficulties, by the addition of one phrase, saying they should triumph ‘IN MY NAME.’ For He did not bid them simply and indefinitely 'make disciples of all nations,' but with the necessary addition 'In My Name.' And the power of His Name being so great, that the Apostle says: 'God has given him a name which is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth.' He shewed the virtue of the power in His Name concealed from the crowd, when He said to His Disciples: 'Go, and make disciples of all nations in my name.' The Proof of the Gospel, Vol. 1, edited and translated by W.J. Ferrar, 1981, page 157

"But our Lord and Saviour did not conceive and not dare to attempt, neither did he attempt and not succed. With one voice He said to His disciples: 'Go and make disciples of all nation in My Name,' teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.' And He enjoined the effect of His Word; and in a little while every race of the Greek and Barbarians was being brought into discipleship." The Proof of the Gospel, Vol. 1, edited and translated by W.J. Ferrar, 1981, page 152

"I am irresistibly forced to retrace my steps, and search for their cause, and to confess that they could only have succeeded in their daring venture, by a power more divine, and more strong than man's, and by the cooperation of Him Who said to them: 'Make Disciples of all nations in my Name.' The Proof of the Gospel, Vol. 1, edited and translated by W.J. Ferrar, 1981, page 159

"'For I came and there was no man, I called and there was none that heard.' And He says to them, 'The Kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.' And He bid His own disciples after their rejection, 'Go ye make disciples of all the nations in my name.' So then we are the Gentiles know and receive the prophet that was fortold, and sent by His Father, as being Lawgiver to all men..." The Proof of the Gospel, Vol. 2, edited and translated by W.J. Ferrar, 1981, page 175

The Theophania
"But he who used nothing human or mortal, see how in truth he again conceded the oracle of God, in the word which he spoke to his disciples, the weak ones, saying, 'Go ye and make disciples of all the peoples...' These things then (scil. how can we do this? how preach to the Romans, etc.) the disciples of our savior would either have said or thought; so by a simple addition of a word, he resolved the sum of those things of which they doubted, the sum of them he committed to them in that he said, ye conquer 'in my name.' For it was not that he ordered them simply and without discriminating, to 'go and make disciples of all the peoples,' but with the important addition, and he said 'in my name.' For because of the power of his name did all this come about, even as the Apostle said, God has given him a name more excellent than all names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, which is in heaven and in earth and under the earth..." The Theophania from the Syriac, Text edited by Samuel Lee, London 1842. Cambridge 1843, page 333


"The Disciples could not otherwise have undertaken this enterprise, than by a Divine power which exceeds that of man, and by the assistance of Him who said to them, 'Go, and make Disciples of all nations in my name.' And when he had said this to them, he attached to it the promise, by which they should be so encouraged, as readily to give themselves up to the things commanded. For he said unto them, "Behold I am with you always, even to the end of the world." The Theophania from the Syriac, Text edited by Samuel Lee, London 1842. Cambridge 1843, page 336

"Our Saviour said to them therefore, after His resurrection, 'Go ye and make Disciples of all nations in my name.' And these things He said, who formerly had commanded: "In the way of the Gentiles go ye not," but enjoined them that they should preach to the Jews only. But, when these abused their inviters, then He dismissed the servants the second time, and said, "go ye out into the ways and paths, and all that ye find call to the feast." The Theophania from the Syriac, Text edited by Samuel Lee, London 1842. Cambridge 1843, page 242

"Which of the magicians is it, who ever projected that which our Saviour did? But, if one did so project; still he dared not to advance this. But, if one so dared; still he brought not the matter to effect. He (the Saviour) said in one word and enouncement to His Disciples, 'Go and make disciples of all nations in my name, and teach ye them every thing that I have commanded you.' And the deed he made to follow the word. For thence, every race of the Greeks and Barbarians became at once, and in a short space of time, (His) Disciples." The Theophania from the Syriac, Text edited by Samuel Lee, London 1842. Cambridge 1843, page 298

Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History (The History of the Church)
"But the rest of the apostles, who were harassed in innumerable ways with a view to destroy them and drive them from the land of Judea, had gone forth to preach the Gospel to all the nations, relying upon the aid of Christ, when he said, 'Go ye, teach all nations in my name.' Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, translated by C.F. Cruse,(1998) Book 3, Chap. 5, page 70

The Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine
"What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator, or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name? Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke the word to his followers, and fulfilled it by the event, saying to them, 'Go ye, and make disciples of all nations in my name.' The Oration in Praise of Constantine, Chap. 16, page 907-908 of The Master Christian Library, Version 6.02

Commentary on Psalms
Psalms 59:9
"According to another explanation, the words Sichem, Galaad, Manasses, Ephraim, Juda, Moab, and Edom represent all nations indiscriminately. The Jews are mentioned in the first place, because to them first should the kingdom of God be announced; but after them Christ commanded his disciples to preach the Gospel 'to all the nations in his name.'" The Lord's Command to Baptise Bernard H. Cuneo, 1923, page 77

Psalms 65:5-6
"All nations are invited to come consider the awe-inspiring deeds, which God performed in behalf of his people, in Egypt, in the Red Sea, in the Jordan; and to reflect that he who could confute his enemies of old, is still powerful against them. Hence we should rejoice in him, who by his power endureth forever. We should understand these words of that saying of Christ: 'All power is given to me in heaven and on earth. Going make disciples of all the nations in my name.' Wherefore Aquila translates it: 'who exercises authority in his power forever.'" The Lord's Command to Baptise Bernard H. Cuneo, 1923, page 78

Psalms 67:34
"That Christ's voice was endowed with power is evident from his deeds; for when he said to his disciples: 'Come, follow me, and I shall make you fishers of men," he actually fulfilled this promise by his power; and again when he commanded them saying: 'Going make disciples of all the nations in my name,' he manifested his power in very deed." The Lord's Command to Baptise Bernard H. Cuneo, 1923, page 78

Psalms 76:20
"From the preceding verse we learn that the earth shook and trembled. This was realized when Christ entered Jerusalem, and the entire city was in consternation; also when the nations of the world trembled upon hearing the words of the Gospel from the lips of the Apostles. How should we understand the prophet when he says that Christ's way is in the sea, and his paths in many waters, and his footsteps will not be known? This passage receives light from his promise to his disciples: 'Going make disciples of all nations in my name,' and, 'Behold I am with you all days even to the end of the world.' For thruout the entire world, invisibly present to his disciples, he traveled on the sea of life, and in the many waters of the nations. This he accomplished by his invisible and hidden power." The Lord's Command to Baptise Bernard H. Cuneo, 1923, page 79

Commentary on Isaiah

Isaiah 18:2
"This command seems to be given to the disciples of our Savior. Since they are messengers of good tidings, they are called messengers, and light ones, to distinguish them from the apostles of the Jews. Wherefore the prophet addresses these messengers of good tidings thus: You disciples of Christ, go as the Savior himself has commanded you; 'Go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel,' and 'Going make disciples of all the nations in my name.'" The Lord's Command to Baptise Bernard H. Cuneo, 1923, page 79

Isaiah 34:16
"For he who said to them, 'make disciples of all the nations in my name,' also forbad them to establish churches in one and the same place." The Lord's Command to Baptise Bernard H. Cuneo, 1923, page 80

It is interesting to notice the way in which Eusebius quotes this passage. In two of our passages here, he goes on to refer to Phillippians 2:9-10! Also, he places these words directly in Jesus mouth! There is nothing to indicate he is trying to abbreviate! Or he is mingling authors (Matthew and Luke)! There is every indication he is quoting it just as he has found it in his manuscripts of the Book of Matthew!

[Petrameansrock]

[Replying to post 33 by Petrameansrock]

http://www.godglorified.com/eusebius.htm (that's the website I got this from)

[JehovahsWitness]

Also just want to point out the irony that I am a Trinitarian arguing against a scripture traditionally used to defend the Trinity and you are a JW arguing for it. Just thought that was kind of funny.

What is "funny" is people (not you or anyone in this forum but people that i have met in my life personally) so brainwashed and lacking critical thinking skills that they cannot see that Matthew 28:19 does not support the trinity at all and being able to do nothing but see in it what they have been told to see and parroting that out whenever asked.

A "christian" arguing that a bible passage is wrong/changed/and interpolation/nonsence etc is standard operational procedure from what I can see. The only people I have met that argue more fervently against the accuracy of the bible are members of the clergy and graduates from theological schools of higher learning.



JJW

[Petrameansrock]

[Replying to post 35 by JehovahsWitness]

I understand both sides of the argument. I see the support and I also see how it can be viewed in a way where it doesn't support the trinity. However, I don't really have an opinion on it because I think it is spurious

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 35 by JehovahsWitness]

I understand both sides of the argument. I see the support and I also see how it can be viewed in a way where it doesn't support the trinity. However, I don't really have an opinion on it because I think it is spurious

And that, if you can grasp is the arguement I am making, there is not solid evidence that the verse is spurious. Someone has to defend the integrity of the bible, Jehovah's Witnesses will take on the task (thus the posts above).


JW

[Petrameansrock]

[Replying to post 37 by JehovahsWitness]

I think that there is solid evidence. I don't think that you are in denial or anything though. Your position is a legitimate viewpoint supported by evidence. All I ask is that you say the same about mine.

[Petrameansrock]

[Replying to post 38 by Petrameansrock]

Still would love those citations though

[JehovahsWitness]

Within his writings it is found in three forms.
bullet Form 1. "Go disciple ye all the nations" (7 times)
bullet Form 2. "Go disciple ye all the nations in my name" (17 times)
bullet Form 3. The traditional form, or Textus Receptus, KJV (5 times)

Apart from copy-pasting where we can see the quotes under debate this "argument" boils down to: the direct quotes must be the ones that the writer referred to more. This is like saying if I call a friend Bob more than Robert I believe the form "Bob" (not Robert) is what is officially written on his birth certificate (and every time I call him "Bob" I'm reading.

Of itself this is a very weak argument, not least because we tend to use the "shorter" abbreviated forms more and especially if he was (which the context indicates) attempting to prove or comment on that which is other than bapitsm per se but about the role of Christ. It can ceretainly be argued that it is more likely he would quote in full when directly referring to the officially held foruma and abbreviate in his personal argumentation and commentary.

All the references you provided do is demonstrate playing "the numbers game (17 to 12) can only take you so far and essentially do not prove where he was reading directly from a manuscript and where he was appreviating. They also illustrate that Eusebius was not always rigorous in his references and took some liberty with his "quotations". That or we must use his writings to argue that he had a totally different version of the bible, which has since been wiped from the historical record, one that included Jesus quoting Paul.