Did Jesus exist?

[Elijah John]

From another thread:

and historical records and reality to prove he {Jesus} didn't exist.

For debate, please address any of the following.

Has it indeed been "proven" that Jesus did not exist?

Did Jesus exist as a real, historical human being?

And if not, would it have been necessary to invent him?, If so, why so?

Please make your case, for or against his existence.

And please, no subjective and sentimental "yes Virginia, there really is a Santa Claus" arguments.

[Mithrae]

I can't help but noticing that you have failed to address post #3 in which the numerous problems with that supposition have been detailed.

Your personal lack of knowledge, doesn't mean there are problems with the theory.

The LXX version of Zechariah does says rising.

See page 22 and 190 of The Zechariah Tradition and the Gospel of Matthew By Charlene McAfee Moss.

No it doesn't. The Hebrew original says Branch, and I showed you two different LXX translations which agree with that (saying Branch and Shoot respectively). I also showed you that the 'Branch' in the passage is not Jesus the son of Jehozadak, since the passage refers to two individuals (6:13) and the one who Zechariah had already described as building the house of the Lord is Zerubbabel (4:8-9). Furthermore, I even showed how the 'Branch' terminology is therefore an allusion to Isaiah 11:1, that in Zechariah's mind Zerubbabel the descendant of David was the "shoot from the stump of Jesse."

You initially claimed that Paul derived his view of Jesus from Zechariah (despite using a completely different word for Satan, as I also showed) and yet your source is about the gospel of Matthew. Whatever Matthew did with his story of Jesus - and certainly he more than any other evangelist did try to create parallels with passages from the Tanakh - is irrelevant to the earlier information from Mark, Paul and so on.

Thankyou for providing your source; we can rest easy knowing that the problem with your claims probably lies more with how you are choosing to describe it than with the scholar herself

[alwayson]

[Replying to post 31 by Mithrae]

The book quotes the LXX version of Zechariah 6.12b:

"Behold the man, whose name is Rising, and he will rise up from below....."

pg. 190

Furthermore, I even showed how the 'Branch' terminology is therefore an allusion to Isaiah 11:1, that in Zechariah's mind Zerubbabel the descendant of David was the "shoot from the stump of Jesse."

The whole point of the Jewish technique of pesher is to ignore the original intent of the text and reveal something new.

[Mithrae]

[Replying to post 31 by Mithrae]

The book literally quotes the LXX version of Zechariah 6.12b:

"Behold the man, whose name is Rising, and he will rise up from below....."


pg. 190

Fair enough, but Dr. Moss is evidently wrong on that point. Her book is apparently "a “moderately revised� version (p. vii) of her [2002] doctoral thesis." Why she is wrong we can only speculate, but I provided two translations which show that the LXX agreed with the original Hebrew on this point and explained why the original Hebrew 'branch' makes sense as an allusion to Isaiah 11:1.

An 1844 LXX translation by L. C. L. Brenton:
Zechariah 4:8 And the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 9 The hands of Zorobabel have laid the foundation of this house, and his hands shall finish it: and thou shalt know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to thee.
Zechariah 6:12 and thou shalt say to him, Thus saith the Lord Almighty; Behold the man whose name is The Branch; and he shall spring up from his stem, and build the house of the Lord.

A New English Translation of the Septuagint, as published by Oxford University Press in 2009, including corrections and emendations made in the second printing (2009) and corrections and emendations made in June 2014:
Zechariah 4:8 And a word of the Lord came to me, saying, 9"The hands of Zorobabel laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also complete it. And you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you.
Zechariah 6:12and you shall say to him: This is what the Lord Almighty says: Behold, a man, Shoot is his name, and he shall sprout from below him and shall build the house of the Lord.

[alwayson]

Why she is wrong we can only speculate

Scholars don't use translations off the bookshelf like you do.