Questions: The first born of all creation?

[polonius]

And he is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15).

Questions:

(1) How can someone be the image of something invisible?

(2) If something is the "firstborn" there would have had to be a time when it did not yet exist, wouldn't there?

[tigger2]

(1) In the same way man was made in the image of God. Genesis 1; 1 Cor. 11:7.

(2) Yes.

[brianbbs67]

1 Invisible to us, not invisible(he has a form)

2 yes

[polonius]

And he is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15).

Questions:

(1) How can someone be the image of something invisible?

(2) If something is the "firstborn" there would have had to be a time when it did not yet exist, wouldn't there?

Answers:

1 Invisible to us, not invisible(he has a form)

2 yes

QUESTIONS:

1. What form does God have? Isn't He immaterial?

2. If there was a time when the first born did not exist, Jesus is not co-eternal with God nor co-equal with God. Therefore the Trinity dogma is false.

[2timothy316]

QUESTIONS:

1. What form does God have? Isn't He immaterial?

John 4:24 "God is a Spirit..."

The Bible doesn't go into really any detail other than that He is a spirit creature. He lives in a realm that is nothing like our physical realm. 1 Kings 8:27 says, "The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, cannot contain you [Jehovah]." Not because of size but perhaps because of substance? We really have no Bible answer for why other than that He is physically 'unreachable' to mankind. (Ps 148:13)

2. If there was a time when the first born did not exist, Jesus is not co-eternal with God nor co-equal with God. Therefore the Trinity dogma is false.

Are you saying that Jehovah can't make something that can live eternally if He so chooses?

I agree that Jesus is not co-equal in authority and I agree the trinity dogma is false. Jesus' power isn't absolute. He doesn't hold power over his Father. John 5:19 states, "Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing."

[JehovahsWitness]

First of all God is only invisible to humans, he is a spirit and other spirits (like himself) can see him ie he is not invisible in heaven (see Mat 18:10)

(1) How can someone be the image of something invisible?

An image is that which resembles the original, it doesn't have to resemble physically (although Jesus as "The Word" and God's first recreation may well resemble his father in what he looks like) it can resemble in character or behaviour.

Definition IMAGE

3 a :exact likeness :semblance
God created man in his own image—Genesis 1:27 (Revised Standard Version)
b :a person strikingly like another person she is the image of her mother

4 a :a tangible or visible representation :incarnation the image of filial devotion
b archaic :an illusory form :apparition
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/image

1. What form does God have?

We don't know, the bible doesn't say; we probably couldn't compute the information if it did. We are talking about an entirely different "dimension", we probably don't even have the lanuguage to describe what God looks like.

[JehovahsWitness]

(2) If something is the "firstborn" there would have had to be a time when it did not yet exist, wouldn't there?

That is correct. This posses somewhat of a problem to trinitarians that contend that Jesus had no beginning.

[Elijah John]

1) I agree with the answers thus far for the first OP question.

2) This verse alone is New Testament evidence against the Trinity.

But I wonder, is there any evidence outside of the Gospel of John and the letters of Paul that Jesus Christ was the "firstborn of all Creation"?

Any evidence from Creation (Nature) Herself?

Can that claim be supported by any rational or philosophical process?

It seems as absurd to me as calling Jesus "God".

..I am YHVH, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who by myself spread out the earth;

(Isaiah 44.24)

Note the bold, YHVH alone is Creator, no "co-Creator", no "agent of Creation" in Jesus, no "firstborn of all Creation" by whom all things were created". (JWs take note )

[ttruscott]

How can someone be the image of something invisible?

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers http://biblehub.com/colossians/1-15.htm
(15) The image of the invisible God.--This all important clause needs the most careful examination. We note accordingly (1) that the word "image" (like the word "form," Philippians 2:6-7) is used in the New Testament for real and essential embodiment, as distinguished from mere likeness. Thus in Hebrews 10:1 we read, "The law, having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things;" we note also in Romans 1:23 the distinction between the mere outward "likeness" and the "image" which it represented;

I tend to agree.

[2timothy316]

How can someone be the image of something invisible?

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers http://biblehub.com/colossians/1-15.htm
(15) The image of the invisible God.--This all important clause needs the most careful examination. We note accordingly (1) that the word "image" (like the word "form," Philippians 2:6-7) is used in the New Testament for real and essential embodiment, as distinguished from mere likeness. Thus in Hebrews 10:1 we read, "The law, having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things;" we note also in Romans 1:23 the distinction between the mere outward "likeness" and the "image" which it represented;

I tend to agree.

From the same link provided.

Geneva Study Bible
7} Who is the image of the invisible God, {i} the firstborn of every creature:

(7) A graphic description of the person of Christ, by which we understand, that in him alone God shows himself to be seen: who was begotten of the Father before anything was made, that is, from everlasting. And by him also all things that are made, were made without any exception, by whom also they continue to exist, and whose glory they serve.

(i) Begotten before anything was made: and therefore the everlasting Son of the everlasting Father.


I tend to agree.