The Second Coming – Why would there be a need for a church

[polonius]

Four times in the New Testament it is recorded that Jesus would return during his generation. But he didn’t. And this raises the question as to why if Jesus believed he was returning to found his kingdom on earth there would be any need for him to found a church.

Luke 9:27 “'I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.'

Matthew 16:28 “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not d taste death e until they see the Son of Manf coming in his kingdom."

Mark 9 And he said to them, "Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not l taste death m until they see the kingdom of God after it has come n with power."

1Thes 4 “15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. “


One religion has an interesting answer. They first claimed that Jesus would return in 1874, but when Jesus didn’t they changed the date to 1914. They now insist that Jesus did return but he is invisible.

If so, how would they know he has returned?

[JehovahsWitness]

Because we (Jehovah's Witnesses) don't believe we are wrong on this. If one day we come to believe this is wrong we will change our beliefs; we have no problem changing our beliefs once we see we are wrong.

This is fascinating JW. Readers and yourself will remember that a number of weeks ago, I (in my own estimation) demolished a claim from yourself that Jesus fulfilled prophecies,

Well all I can say is if ever *I* agree with YOUR estimation, I will be sure to let you know. I have nothing to report so far in this regard but thanks for sharing.

JW

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 8 by marco]

That's not a problem for us as we believe holy spirit makes everything clear in due time to but ONLY to spirit anointed true followers. Our belief is that those that are not of (or in support of) that number will remain in the dark on spiritual matters and will find such spiritual things "ambiguous", "vague" "confusing" even "foolish" (see 2 Cor 4:4; 1 Cor 3:19, 20)

Please re-read this as if it were written by a member of a competing religion or Christian denomination that does not believe what JWs believe, and tell us the fault in that person's logic.

[rikuoamero]

Because we (Jehovah's Witnesses) don't believe we are wrong on this. If one day we come to believe this is wrong we will change our beliefs; we have no problem changing our beliefs once we see we are wrong.

Well all I can say is if ever *I* believe I am wrong about a teaching or an interpretation I will be sure to let you know. That hasn't happened yet.

JW

So with regard to the list of Jesus fulfilled prophecies that I have debunked...? As I just indicated, this isn't the first time I have asked for a follow up. You gave readers the list, and whenever it is countered (not just by myself), there is no follow up from you.

Besides, you and I have had this *I* discussion before. It's very difficult for a reader to tell whenever you post something as to whether or not it is your own personal individual thoughts on the matter, or whether you are posting as a more or less official representative of the Jehovah's Witnesses organisation. Just look back on the posts you have made on this very thread alone: You talk about what it is Jehovah's Witnesses believe as a group and constantly link to JW images and videos.

[rikuoamero]

Because we (Jehovah's Witnesses) don't believe we are wrong on this. If one day we come to believe this is wrong we will change our beliefs; we have no problem changing our beliefs once we see we are wrong.

This is fascinating JW. Readers and yourself will remember that a number of weeks ago, I (in my own estimation) demolished a claim from yourself that Jesus fulfilled prophecies,

Well all I can say is if ever *I* agree with YOUR estimation, I will be sure to let you know. I have nothing to report so far in this regard but thanks for sharing.

JW

(Since you edited, I might as well make a new comment)
Why not? Obviously you don't think I demolished your claim. Obviously from your point of view, Jesus DID fulfill the prophecies, and from your point of view, what I did in my response to the list of prophecies you gave us readers doesn't hold muster.
Since (from your point of view) what I did doesn't pan out, why not respond to it? This is debate!

[JehovahsWitness]

...This raises the question as to why if Jesus believed he was returning to found his kingdom on earth there would be any need for him to found a church.

Another reason for a "church" during these last days would in my opinion be for the education and mutual encouragement of Jesus' disciples Jehovah's Witnesses have weekly meetings, publish literature and have a TV channel that are used to educate and encourage each other. These are important as they are we believe, tools to help keep our faith strong.

[marco]

[Replying to post 8 by marco]

That's not a problem for us as we believe holy spirit makes everything clear in due time to but ONLY to spirit anointed true followers.

Goodness me, that explains everything. Holy Spirit might get round to my street at some point. I wonder if he does the even numbers first. To be truthful I did find much of the "revelation text" utterly opaque, silly, absurd, but I'm glad to hear it's just me not understanding. Phew!

[polonius]

[Replying to post 8 by marco]

That's not a problem for us as we believe holy spirit makes everything clear in due time to but ONLY to spirit anointed true followers. Our belief is that those that are not of (or in support of) that number will remain in the dark on spiritual matters and will find such spiritual things "ambiguous", "vague" "confusing" even "foolish" (see 2 Cor 4:4; 1 Cor 3:19, 20)

RESPONSE: So if one believes this they are a "spirit anointed true follower"? And if they don't, they aren't?

Any religion can make such a claim, can't it?

[JehovahsWitness]

It's very difficult for a reader to tell whenever you post something as to whether or not it is your own personal individual thoughts on the matter, or whether you are posting as a more or less official representative of the Jehovah's Witnesses organisation. Just look back on the posts you have made on this very thread alone: You talk about what it is Jehovah's Witnesses believe as a group and constantly link to JW images and videos.

Yes you brought this up back in October 2016; all I do is repeat what I said the, that you can take it that unless I am quoting (which you will see because I usually include "<--- quotation marks --->") and a source, anything I write are "my own personal individual thoughts" on any given topic.

If my personal beliefs differ from the official beliefs of Jehovah's Witness on any particular point I will be sure to let you know. Other than that you can take it that the two (that is to say my beliefs and the official beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses as expressed through official souces) are interchangable.



JW

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 8 by marco]

That's not a problem for us as we believe holy spirit makes everything clear in due time to but ONLY to spirit anointed true followers.

Goodness me, that explains everything. Holy Spirit might get round to my street at some point. I wonder if he does the even numbers first. To be truthful I did find much of the "revelation text" utterly opaque, silly, absurd, but I'm glad to hear it's just me not understanding. Phew!

I don't know if you are being sarcastic or not but I do want you to know that I was simply stating the official beliefs on the point of biblical understanding and not attacking you personally or any other group. We do believe that true bible understanding is a gift God's grace and not simply a matter of intellectual aptitude or personal merit. I provided the scriptures that we use to support this view in my post #9 above.

You can also find proof that this is view is part of the JW belief system by doing a search on our website www.jw.org.


Here is my earlier post on this topic
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 330#861330

[rikuoamero]

It's very difficult for a reader to tell whenever you post something as to whether or not it is your own personal individual thoughts on the matter, or whether you are posting as a more or less official representative of the Jehovah's Witnesses organisation. Just look back on the posts you have made on this very thread alone: You talk about what it is Jehovah's Witnesses believe as a group and constantly link to JW images and videos.

Yes you brought this up back in October 2016; I don't see why this is an issue but if my personal beliefs differ from the official beliefs of Jehovah's Witness on any particular point I will be sure to let you know. Other than that you can take it that the two are interchangable.

JW

Do people who are members of the group Jehovah's Witnesses (most? all?) change their mind readily, easily and willingly when presented with information, as you claimed in Post 6 of this thread?
Do YOU, the user named Jehovah's Witness, change your mind once you see that you are wrong?

If yes to the second question, why have you not defended the list of prophecies Jesus fulfilled, whenever I or someone else rebuts it?

I don't see why this is an issue

It's...to be honest, it's more of an annoyance. To try to get in my head, imagine you were debating someone constantly and trying to get them to see and believe the truth (which in your eyes is what JWs teach). Only, the person you're talking to is a user whose username is Roman Catholic Church, and whose style of response is a vast majority of the time indicating whatever it is the Roman Catholic Church teaches, so much so that you feel like you're not talking to an individual and getting what it is they think, but simply someone regurgitating dogma as if that is the be all and end all of debate.