Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914

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Justin108
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Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914

Post #1

Post by Justin108 »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
polonius.advice wrote:They now insist that Jesus did return but he is invisible.

If so, how would they know he has returned?
If you are refering to JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES we believe know because of the signs Jesus provided to identify the time (see Mat 24, Lk 21, Mk 14) and we believe it started in 1914 because of our interpretation of bible chronology (see link below).

Learn more
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... -prophecy/


JW
1. What exactly happened in 1914 that points to Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 14?

2. Was 1914 unique in this regard? For example, Luke 21 mentions "wars and uprisings". In what way is 1914 unique in terms of wars and uprisings?

3. According to (my understanding of) Jehovah's Witnesses' claims, Jesus' rule from 1914 is hidden and behind the scenes. His rule is invisible to most of us. Did Jehovah's Witnesses predict that Jesus' rule would be behind the scenes from the start? Or did they initially believe that Jesus' rule will be clearly apparent to everyone, and only after 1914 when no Jesus was to be found did they change their conclusion to "well Jesus must be doing it in heaven where no one can see"?

4. Do you consider the possibility that your interpretation might be wrong and that Jesus did not return in 1914? Or do you believe that it is an indisputable fact that Jesus returned in 1914?

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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914

Post #51

Post by For_The_Kingdom »

Justin108 wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 44 by For_The_Kingdom]

I don't have to talk to a Witness born in the 60's because I am one. Thanking you kindly for your advice nonetheless.

Regards,

JW
For_The_Kingdom wrote: Talk to any ex-Witness who was born around <--1960
Good point lol.

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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914

Post #52

Post by For_The_Kingdom »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 47 by Justin108]

What makes you think I haven't spoken to ex-witnesses on this topic? I am fully aware of the issues related to 1914, past and present (many of which I have dealt with in this thread), I lived through the period and have had countless in depth discussions with many dozens of witnesses and ex-witnesses on the subject. I have read most if not all the first source material on this topic as well as related university papers that deal with it.

Was there anything else you feel inclined to add?

JW
Hmm, interesting. What does the Bible say about false prophecies? The WTS has been on record saying that it is God's prophet on earth...that's funny, because the Bible says..

Deut 18:20-22

20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.�

21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?� 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed."


So in a nutshell, the WTS "spoke in God's name things that he did not command"...and they also made prophecies that "did not take place or come true", so therefore their message was a message that the "Lord has not spoken".

Plain and simple.

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Post #53

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 50 by JehovahsWitness]


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Post #54

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 51 by For_The_Kingdom]


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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914

Post #55

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:41 am
Justin108 wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: If you are refering to JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES we believe know because of the signs Jesus provided to identify the time (see Mat 24, Lk 21, Mk [strike]14[/strike] 13)

JW
1. What exactly happened in 1914 that points to Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 14?

If you read what I said we (Jehovah's Witnesses) believe that the scriptures provide information as to a "sign" that identify "the time" or the period (often refered to as "the last days") meaning a period of time that leads directly to the great tribulation (or the end of the system of things).

The date 1914 cannot in our opinion, specifically be pinpointed from this "composite sign".

as I said above
"we believe [Christ's rule] started in 1914 because of our interpretation of bible chronology (see link below).

Image

Learn more
https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/bib ... y/#p82-p88


Further reading: 1914 A Significant Year in Bible Prophecy
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... -prophecy/
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... last-days/

GLOSSARY OF TERMS [END TIMES]




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GOD'S KINGDOM, 1914 and ... THE GENTILE TIMES
The "large tree" represented Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 4:20-22).

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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914

Post #56

Post by JehovahsWitness »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 12:10 pm

The "large tree" represented Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 4:20-22).
That would be the initial fulfillment, in its major fulfillment the tree represents the kings of God's kingdom

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INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914

Post #57

Post by TRANSPONDER »

I'm not really proposing to participate in this. But I was intrigued by this suggestion that the 1914 prediction was in fact correct and, in an invisible way, Jesus has returned has returned and the end times/Last Days are here and have been for over 100 years.

I hardly need say that nobody who is not already a believer is going to see that as anything but self - delusionary. Even the oft - seen claim that the founding of Israel in the 20th c was prophecy coming true and this was the End Times coming - invisibly for the last half a century. And there have been many end of world predictions since then and they have all failed in any and every appreciable way.

Sure, there are always wars and rumours of wars. But that is an ongoing joke amongst skeptics:

"There will be rainstorms, and car crashes, and electricity will fail!"
"Wah! prophecy!
"

Not arguin' just sayin' :) and putting notice that prophecies that don't pan out, as well as everyday coincidences (I've seen a few dillies in my own atheistic life), are NOT in any way whatsoever reasons to reasonably think that anything is coming to pass or that (other than retrospective prophecy - 'predicting' after the event (1) prophecies coming true. and that's why I don't have have a dog in this fight. Just that nobody who doesn't either already have Faith or is utterly gullible and too lazy to look up 'failed prophecy' is going to buy this 'prophecy' stuff, which seems to consist of either excusing why they don't happen, or saying nothing about it, hoping nobody will remember and making the next one.

But we do remember, and the failure of the JW's at least is to be seen on Wiki

Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society publications have made a series of predictions about Christ's Second Coming and the advent of God's Kingdom, each of which has gone unfulfilled. Almost all the predictions for 1878, 1881, 1914, 1918 and 1925 were later reinterpreted as a confirmation of the eschatological framework of the Bible Student movement and Jehovah's Witnesses, with many of the predicted events viewed as having taken place invisibly. Further expectations were held for the arrival of Armageddon in 1975, but resulted in a later apology to members from the society's leadership.

English researcher George D. Chryssides has argued that although there have been some "unrealized expectations", changes in Watch Tower chronology are attributable more to changed chronological schemes, rather than to failed predictions. The Watch Tower Society has acknowledged errors, which it said helped "sift" the unfaithful from its ranks, but says adherents remained confident that "God's Word" had not failed.
[2]

And other such predictions are no better. Remember the May calendar prediction? We're still here. Did anyone see that slimy preacher and his crack across America nonsense? I'm not a violent man, but I've never seen a face I so wanted to hit, other than Nigel Farrage.

(1) the siege of Tyre is the test case here. Spun as a prophecy, it is written after Alexander's conquest and we can even place it because it describes a ruined Tyre with the causeway (made of the rubble of mainland Tyre) connecting to the island. It was all deserted and a place for fishermen to spread their nets.

But that wasn't the end of Tyre as the prophecy makes. It was rebuilt and visited by Jesus and Paul and exists today. Failed prophecy - where not retrospective history, and Daniel's 'prophecy' is the same. Retrospective history written just before the Maccabean revolt. You can even give the year when the 'prophecy' goes wrong. 260 AD or something. I could look it up.

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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914

Post #58

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 5:16 am
2ndpillar2 wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 12:10 pm

The "large tree" represented Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 4:20-22).
That would be the initial fulfillment, in its major fulfillment the tree represents the kings of God's kingdom

Image
No, the stump reference is to Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 2:25-26), and all the metals will be destroyed "at the same time" by the "stone" (Daniel 2:34-35). All the metals and clay have been destroyed once, and yet to have been destroyed "all at the same time" by the "stone".

Daniel 4:25 that you be driven away from mankind and your dwelling place be with the beasts of the field, and you be given grass to eat like cattle and be drenched with the dew of heaven; and seven periods of time will pass over you, until you recognize that the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind and bestows it on whomever He wishes. 26‘And in that it was commanded to leave the stump with the roots of the tree, your kingdom will be assured to you after you recognize that it is Heaven that rules.

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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914

Post #59

Post by brunumb »

When Prophecy Fails
This is a Social and Psychological Study of a Modern Group that Predicted the Destruction of the World.

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Festinger, Riecken and Schachter used the study to test their theories on how people might be expected to behave when faced with a specific type of dissonance, arising from a failed prophecy. From historical examples, such as the Montanists, Anabaptists, Sabbateans, Millerites and the beginnings of Christianity, the team had seen that in some cases the failure of a prophecy, rather than causing a rejection of the original belief system, could lead believers to increase their personal commitment, and also increase their efforts to recruit others into the belief.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914

Post #60

Post by JehovahsWitness »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 7:52 am
I hardly need say that nobody who is not already a believer is going to see that as anything but self - delusionary.
So you propose that everyone that disagrees with you on this point and believes they have seen the fulfillment of bible prophecy is delusional, gullible and lazy? Ad hominem duly noted.


JW



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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:50 pm, edited 7 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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