Would anyone have listened to Jesus

[Elijah John]

If the real, historical Jesus in the Monotheistic culture of first century Judaism had actually gone around claiming to be YHVH God in the flesh, would anyone have believed him and listened to anything he had to say?

Or is it more likely they would have dismissed him as insane?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 20 by Provoker]

In a religion, there is a lot one is expected to believe, and that belief is falsely called faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for. That does not mean that because we hope for something that it is faith. If what we hope for is not logical, then what we call faith is actually gullibility.

The Bible is filled with assertions that are not "logically possible." The central claim of Christianity is that a corpse came back to life and then subsequently flew away. Such a claim is the very antithesis of logical. Why is it believed 2,000 later? Because some of the the followers of Jesus spread the rumor that Jesus had returned from the dead. And where was the "risen" man now. OH, he flew off up into the sky and disappeared into the clouds. But you can take our word for it.

Jesus has been just about to return any minute now, for the last 2,000 years! If this is not gullibility, purely and simply, then the word has no meaning.

The difference between religion, and the faith of Abraham, is that the fulfillment of the faith of Abraham is logically possible, and it only requires enough faithful to pull it off.

According to "The faith of Abraham, the sun and moon once stopped moving through the sky for about 24 hours at a command from Joshua. A man rode around in the belly of a large fish for several days as if it were some kind of a seagoing taxi. A man and his family members traveled over great oceans to continents yet undiscovered to collect a mating pair of every species of animal on earth (millions of animals) while also constructing a vessel large enough to contain them all. And he managed to keep every one alive for years while this was being accomplished.

And this is what you consider to be "Logically possible!"

The faith of Abraham, or, what Abraham believed, is not something miraculous, but something which can surely happen if there are enough believers to get behind it.
What Abraham believed was that a great nation of believers, will inherit everlasting possession of all the land between the Euphrates and the river of Egypt, and will bring everlasting peace to the earth. This is the good news/gospel/faith of Abraham. There is nothing religious about it. It is a political prediction.

The "God of Abraham" was the Mesopotamian God Elohim.

Genesis 14:
[18] And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
[19] And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

Dictionary of the Bible
The "God Most High" of Melchizedek was the city deity of Canaanite Jerusalem, Elyon. "The title Elyon is probably not Israelite. Genesis 14 identifies El-elyon with the god
worshipped by Melchizedek at Jerusalem, and identifies this deity with the God of the fathers worshipped by Abraham" (Dictionary of the Bible, by father J. Mckenzie, p.316).

History of the Jews, by Simon Dubnov
The "God Most High " of the Canaanites, EL-Elyon, was the creator deity El the Bull. "The head of epic pantheon is the god El. El had probably declined in relative prominence during the second half of the third and first half of the Second Millennium (judging from the theophorous of Semitic origin on cuneiform tablets ranging in date from the Twenty-Sixth century on). Yet he remained the active head of some local pantheons and his name still appears as the first component of such divine names as El-elyon and El-olam." (Yahweh and the Gods of Canaan, p.120, W.F. Albright). Clearly, the creator El was the chief deity of the fathers of Abraham and was the inspiration for what was to become the family/tribal deity of Abraham himself. But the "El of Abraham" would come to be seen, at least by his descendants, as a distinct entity, different from the El of their Canaanite neighbors, and uniquely their own. "Relations with the new Canaanite environment led to complications in Israelite religious concepts. Baal and Ashera did not supersede Yahweh but were honored alongside of him, or perhaps ranked a bit lower. Yahweh was revered as the Israelite national god; Baal as the ruling local genius. (History of the Jews, p.102, Dubnov)."

Wikipedia
El
The Eternal One (‘Olam) has made a covenant oath with us,
Asherah has made (a pact) with us.
And all the sons of El,
And the great council of all the Holy Ones.
With oaths of Heaven and Ancient Earth.[12]

In some inscriptions, the name ’El qone ’ar? meaning "'El creator of Earth" appears, even including a late inscription at Leptis Magna in Tripolitania dating to the second century.[13] In Hittite texts, the expression becomes the single name Ilkunirsa, this Ilkunirsa appearing as the husband of Asherdu (Asherah) and father of 77 or 88 sons.

In a Hurrian hymn to 'El (published in Ugaritica V, text RS 24.278), he is called ’il brt and ’il dn which Cross (p. 39) takes as ''El of the covenant' and ''El the judge' respectively.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)


This is NOT the made up make believe God that you worship at all though, IS IT?

You have your own made up make believe God to worship.

[Provoker]

[Replying to Tired of the Nonsense]Hello Tired:
You have to slow down a bit and respond to what I say rather than what you think I believe...LOL
The religious think that the bible is infallible, and the non-religious think that the bible is crap. I am not so polarized that I can't look at the bible objectively:-) I have read the bible through and after many years of thinking about what I read, I have come to the conclusion that Abraham predicted that a great nation of people who believe Abraham's prediction, will inherit everlasting possession of all the land between the Euphrates and the river of Egypt, and bless all nations with everlasting peace on earth.
Now at this point in history, 2017, no part of Abraham's prediction has come true. However, it is obvious to me that if a large enough bunch of people believed Abraham's prediction, they could occupy the land defined in Abraham's prediction, and actually bring about world peace. Unlikely maybe, but certainly something to hope for without expecting miracles. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, but illogical things hoped for is gullibility, not faith.
IMO, there is a completely logical historical record in the bible, of how believers have tried unsuccessfully to fulfill Abraham's prediction in the past, and how they plan to fulfill it in the future. This becomes clear if one can get past the cover up perpetrated by Constantine and the Roman priesthood, and separate the pagan religion from the logical attempts to fulfill Abraham's completely political prediction.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to Tired of the Nonsense]Hello Tired:
You have to slow down a bit and respond to what I say rather than what you think I believe...LOL
The religious think that the bible is infallible, and the non-religious think that the bible is crap. I am not so polarized that I can't look at the bible objectively:-) I have read the bible through and after many years of thinking about what I read, I have come to the conclusion that Abraham predicted that a great nation of people who believe Abraham's prediction, will inherit everlasting possession of all the land between the Euphrates and the river of Egypt, and bless all nations with everlasting peace on earth.
Now at this point in history, 2017, no part of Abraham's prediction has come true. However, it is obvious to me that if a large enough bunch of people believed Abraham's prediction, they could occupy the land defined in Abraham's prediction, and actually bring about world peace. Unlikely maybe, but certainly something to hope for without expecting miracles. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, but illogical things hoped for is gullibility, not faith.
IMO, there is a completely logical historical record in the bible, of how believers have tried unsuccessfully to fulfill Abraham's prediction in the past, and how they plan to fulfill it in the future. This becomes clear if one can get past the cover up perpetrated by Constantine and the Roman priesthood, and separate the pagan religion from the logical attempts to fulfill Abraham's completely political prediction.

It occurred to me when I was writing my previous post that you might be Jewish and not Christian. In which case my comment about Jesus would be meaningless to you. But I figured you would correct in the error of my ways if I got it wrong.

Otherwise my comments on the God of Abraham were based, not on what I thought you believe, but rather on what you actually said.

"The difference between religion, and the faith of Abraham, is that the fulfillment of the faith of Abraham is logically possible, and it only requires enough faithful to pull it off."

To which I concluded that you believe this stuff yourself. You provoked me.

Having Jewish friends and acquaintances, I recognize that many Jews do not view the OT as inerrant and beyond challenge, but more of a guideline than actual rules or genuine historical accounts.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 20 by Provoker]

I should also point out that, yes Moses had a real hissy fit over the whole golden calf deal for attempting to worship a false god. Who was the real God, the God of abraham? El, or Elyon. Known as El the bull in Mesopotamian belief, and represented in Mesopotamian art as a bull carrying the celestial disk of creation between his horns. So who were Aaron and followers attempting to worship? A golden calf, in other words THE SON OF GOD. A very bad no no for Jews, it would seem.

[Provoker]

[Replying to post 24 by Tired of the Nonsense]Hi Tired:
There is little doubt in my mind that Moses had the faith of Abraham, because he established a nation, and talked the children of Israel into promising to fulfill God's ever lasting promise. It is self explanatory.
The other evidence is that Aaron made the golden calf, meaning that he was not really convinced about the faith of Abraham. I find it telling that Aaron waited until Moses died to establish a priesthood and make himself high priest.
I have read that the main god of Egypt during the 430 years the Israelites were there, was the bull god Attis. The priesthood selected a bull to represent Attis in the flesh. The bull and it's mother lived freely in the Attis temple. After 25 years, if the bull was still alive, it was sacrificed by the priests, and a new bull selected to represent Attis in the flesh. I have also read that a bull motif was common in the northern 10 tribes.
The tribe of Levi did not inherit any land because it was divided up among the other 11 tribes, as the civil service of the government of national Israel. It's job was to police the national laws, collect the fines(fines have always been meant to be sacrificial), collect the income taxes...one tenth of one's annual increase. With all this currency, it was to look after itself, the widows, the orphans, and sojourners in the land. This is exactly what the civil service of every civilized nation did, and still does. IOW, the Levites were not chosen to be religious priests, but to be civil servants. IMO, they were only called priests when the historical record was penned at a much later date.
The reason why the smallest group of Jews returned to Judea after the captivity, is because they were faithful to God's promise, and were committed to resurrecting covenant Israel. So the word "Jew" in post captivity Judea, referred to anyone who was faithful to the God of Abraham, and was therefore committed to the resurrection of Israel. When the faithful Jews accepted Herod as the coming king, they became the backslidden lost sheep of the house of Israel. Jesus began preaching God's Abrahamic gospel promise to them(the gospel of the coming great nation/kingdom), in an attempt to fulfill his own stated mission to preach the gospel and heal the backsliding of the Jews.
I don't see how any serious, honest, bible scholar, could see it any other way:-)
Incidentally, I usually write for the bible story, rather than tailor it for individuals, as I have done for you. I am only interested in pointing out the hidden logical story exists. It is up to those who hear it, to decide whether or not there is a hidden story, and what it means to him if he decides that there is:-)

[Monta]

Well I mean it all depends on the miracles. He did some pretty crazy miracles in the bible.

Those can be pretty convincing.

Jesus did spectacular things in the Bible. In real life he doesn't seem to have created much of a stir. Because no one mentioned him at all when he was supposed to have been alive. At least nothing about him was written during his lifetime. There is no evidence that Jesus even existed, prior to Paul's letters in the 50's. And Paul never met the living Jesus. It is clear that people came to be aware of the tales of the things Jesus was said to have done. But only after he had been dead for decades.

Are stories of resurrections REALLY convincing? Or is it necessary to accept them entirely on faith?

There's no evidence that Abraham or Moses ever existed.
Besides, what you say is mostly your opinion as the unbeliever; the Acts, the Gospels, the Epistles are full of what happened and when.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 24 by Tired of the Nonsense]Hi Tired:
There is little doubt in my mind that Moses had the faith of Abraham, because he established a nation, and talked the children of Israel into promising to fulfill God's ever lasting promise. It is self explanatory.
The other evidence is that Aaron made the golden calf, meaning that he was not really convinced about the faith of Abraham. I find it telling that Aaron waited until Moses died to establish a priesthood and make himself high priest.
I have read that the main god of Egypt during the 430 years the Israelites were there, was the bull god Attis. The priesthood selected a bull to represent Attis in the flesh. The bull and it's mother lived freely in the Attis temple. After 25 years, if the bull was still alive, it was sacrificed by the priests, and a new bull selected to represent Attis in the flesh. I have also read that a bull motif was common in the northern 10 tribes.
The tribe of Levi did not inherit any land because it was divided up among the other 11 tribes, as the civil service of the government of national Israel. It's job was to police the national laws, collect the fines(fines have always been meant to be sacrificial), collect the income taxes...one tenth of one's annual increase. With all this currency, it was to look after itself, the widows, the orphans, and sojourners in the land. This is exactly what the civil service of every civilized nation did, and still does. IOW, the Levites were not chosen to be religious priests, but to be civil servants. IMO, they were only called priests when the historical record was penned at a much later date.
The reason why the smallest group of Jews returned to Judea after the captivity, is because they were faithful to God's promise, and were committed to resurrecting covenant Israel. So the word "Jew" in post captivity Judea, referred to anyone who was faithful to the God of Abraham, and was therefore committed to the resurrection of Israel. When the faithful Jews accepted Herod as the coming king, they became the backslidden lost sheep of the house of Israel. Jesus began preaching God's Abrahamic gospel promise to them(the gospel of the coming great nation/kingdom), in an attempt to fulfill his own stated mission to preach the gospel and heal the backsliding of the Jews.
I don't see how any serious, honest, bible scholar, could see it any other way:-)
Incidentally, I usually write for the bible story, rather than tailor it for individuals, as I have done for you. I am only interested in pointing out the hidden logical story exists. It is up to those who hear it, to decide whether or not there is a hidden story, and what it means to him if he decides that there is:-)

Attis was a Greek deity, not an Egyptian one. And Attis was associated with the sun rather than the celestial bull. Attis was believed to have been born of a virgin, and his birthday was December 25, representing the beginning of the lengthening of the hours of daylight, and therefore the rebirth of the sun.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Well I mean it all depends on the miracles. He did some pretty crazy miracles in the bible.

Those can be pretty convincing.

Jesus did spectacular things in the Bible. In real life he doesn't seem to have created much of a stir. Because no one mentioned him at all when he was supposed to have been alive. At least nothing about him was written during his lifetime. There is no evidence that Jesus even existed, prior to Paul's letters in the 50's. And Paul never met the living Jesus. It is clear that people came to be aware of the tales of the things Jesus was said to have done. But only after he had been dead for decades.

Are stories of resurrections REALLY convincing? Or is it necessary to accept them entirely on faith?

There's no evidence that Abraham or Moses ever existed.
Besides, what you say is mostly your opinion as the unbeliever; the Acts, the Gospels, the Epistles are full of what happened and when.

There's no evidence that Abraham or Moses ever existed.

True. Many modern historians have concluded that the Exodus never occurred and is simply Jewish folklore.

Besides, what you say is mostly your opinion as the unbeliever; the Acts, the Gospels, the Epistles are full of what happened and when.

It is clear that there were many stories of the glorious things that Jesus did which began to circulate in the years after Jesus was dead. Here is a list of the documents which were written about Jesus during the first, second and third centuries.

1 and 2 Clement
Shepherd of Hermas
Didache
Epistle of Barnabas
Apocalypse of Peter
Third Epistle to the Corinthians
Gospel of Thomas
Oxyrhynchus Gospels
Egerton Gospel
Fayyum Fragment
Dialogue of the Saviour
The Gospel of the Ebionites ("GE") – 7 quotations by Epiphanius.
The Gospel of the Hebrews ("GH") – 1 quotation ascribed to Cyril of Jerusalem, plus GH 2–7 quotations by Clement, Origen, and Jerome.
The Gospel of the Nazarenes
Gospel of the Ebionites
Gospel of the Hebrews
Gospel of the Nazoraeans
Secret Gospel of Mark
Gospel of Marcion
Gospel of Judas
Gospel of Thomas
Gospel of Marcion (mid 2nd century)
Gospel of Mani (3rd century)
Gospel of Apelles (mid-late 2nd century)
Gospel of Bardesanes (late 2nd - early 3rd century)
Gospel of Basilides (mid 2nd century)
Gospel of Peter
Gospel of Nicodemus (also called the "Acts of Pilate")
Pseudo-Cyril of Jerusalem, On the Life and the Passion of Christ
Gospel of Bartholomew
Questions of Bartholomew
Resurrection of Jesus
Apocryphon of James (also called the "Secret Book of James")
Book of Thomas the Contender
Dialogue of the Saviour
Gospel of Judas (also called the "Gospel of Judas Iscariot")
Gospel of Mary (also called the "Gospel of Mary Magdalene")
Gospel of Philip
Greek Gospel of the Egyptians (distinct from the Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians)
The Sophia of Jesus Christ
Coptic Apocalypse of Paul (distinct from the Apocalypse of Paul)
Gospel of Truth
Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter (distinct from the Apocalypse of Peter)
Pistis Sophia
Second Treatise of the Great Seth
Apocryphon of John (also called the "Secret Gospel of John")
Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians (distinct from the Greek Gospel of the Egyptians)
Trimorphic Protennoia
Acts of Andrew
Acts of Barnabas
Acts of John
Acts of the Martyrs
Acts of Paul
Acts of Paul and Thecla
Acts of Peter
Acts of Peter and Andrew
Acts of Peter and Paul
Acts of Peter and the Twelve
Acts of Philip
Acts of Pilate
Acts of Thomas
Acts of Timothy
Acts of Xanthippe, Polyxena, and Rebecca
Epistle of Barnabas
Epistles of Clement
Epistle of the Corinthians to Paul
Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans
Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians
Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians
Epistle to Diognetus
Epistle to the Laodiceans (an epistle in the name of Paul)
Epistle to Seneca the Younger (an epistle in the name of Paul)
Third Epistle to the Corinthians - accepted in the past by some in the Armenian Orthodox church.
Apocalypse of Paul (distinct from the Coptic Apocalypse of Paul)
Apocalypse of Peter (distinct from the Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter)
Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius
Apocalypse of Thomas (also called the Revelation of Thomas)
Apocalypse of Stephen (also called the Revelation of Stephen)
First Apocalypse of James (also called the First Revelation of James)
Second Apocalypse of James (also called the Second Revelation of James)
The Shepherd of Hermas
The Descent of Mary

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_apocrypha

Plus the 27 book of the NT, of course. My point was that no one seemed to take notice of Jesus while he was actually alive. Absolutely no mention of him occurred during his lifetime.

[polonius]

Well I mean it all depends on the miracles. He did some pretty crazy miracles in the bible.

Those can be pretty convincing.

RESPONSE: Only if you consider the Bible to be inspired by God and historically correct. Otherwise they are just stories.

[Provoker]

[Replying to post 27 by Tired of the Nonsense]Hello Tired:
Oops...memory is sometimes a bit poor at my age. I meant, the bull god "Apis", not "Attis":-(
In any case, there is sufficient evidence for me, that Israel was established to fulfill the faith of Abraham, but Aaron threw out God's promise and made Israel a pagan nation. The pagan Israelite priests never acknowledged this important departure for obvious reasons. It is plain to see that Jesus and Paul believed this, because neither of them supported the priesthood. Paul said that God preached the gospel first to Abraham saying; In thee shall all nations be blessed. So if we go back and read God's everlasting gospel promise, it is clearly unconditional. The pagan religion which officially began in 325AD Nicaea, was declared to be "Christian" in 381AD, and the rest is church history.
God defined the blessing of His gospel promise when He said that the Christ will be given the resurrected kingdom of his father David, and there will be peace and good will on earth. Jesus was apparently working toward that resurrection when he was killed to stop him.