Why would God, who is spirit, need something physical

[Elijah John]

Why would God, who is Spirit, need something physical like blood for appeasement, or to give Himself permisson to forgive the sins of humanity?

Isn't it far more likely (and more Scriptural) that He looks for more Spiritual qualities in order to forgive sins? Things like basic repentance and a willingness to forgive our fellow humans?

(Hosea 6.6, Micah 6.6-6.8, the Lord's prayer, the Beattitudes, the Parables of Jesus etc, etc, etc.)

[Divine Insight]

Why would God, who is Spirit, need something physical like blood for appeasement, or to give Himself permisson to forgive the sins of humanity?

Isn't it far more likely (and more Scriptural) that He looks for more Spiritual qualities in order to forgive sins? Things like basic repentance and a willingness to forgive our fellow humans?

(Hosea 6.6, Micah 6.6-6.8, the Lord's prayer, the Beattitudes, the Parables of Jesus etc, etc, etc.)

If you don't believe in a spiritual God who can be appeased by blood sacrifices then doesn't this negate the entire Old Testament God?

After all, it was the Old Testament that gave birth to the idea that God requires blood sacrifices to atone for sins. In fact, this is the very basis for Christianity. Jesus is supposed to be the blood sacrifice to end all blood sacrifices. He was the ultimate blood sacrifice.

And all of this follows from the Old Testament.

Although some Christian will argue that it's not really about "blood sacrifices" but instead it's just about death being the wages of sin. This is where they come up with the idea that Jesus "died" in our place to pay for our sins.

There are many different ways people have attempted to justify these ancient religious tales. But no matter how we try to justify them it isn't any easier to justify the behavior and demands of YHVH than it is to justify the claims made about Jesus.

They both fly in the face of a benevolent spiritual God who should have no need for blood sacrifices, etc.

So the objections you bring up for Jesus apply to YHVH just as much.

There's no getting around it. Unless you want to go back and rewrite the entire canon of tales. But then it would be a whole different story entirely.

[ttruscott]

Why would God, who is Spirit, need something physical like blood for appeasement, or to give Himself permisson to forgive the sins of humanity?

The parable of the sinful but good seed in Matt 13 teaches us that the good seed must live with the tares until they are mature enough to harvest. Since it also tells us that the harvest is the day of judgement, it is logical to accept that the only maturity that saves anyone for judgement is holiness.

Therefore we have a pointed connection between needing to live with the tares and the growing holiness of the sinful elect with the implication that living with the tares is a method to bring the sinful elect to repentance and rebirth.

Your question asks about HIS need. GOD needs nothing for HIMself but HE is quite willing to supply that which HIS sinful church needs. If such a method of them living together rather than on different planets would speed the recovery of the sinful elect from their addiction to sin, then I believe HE would choose it for our sakes.

Since GOD cannot abide evil, once HIS creation separated themselves into elect and non-elect by their free will, the next thing HE must do to stay true to HIMself would be to call for the judgment upon the non-elect. It also seems logical that it was their rebellion* to the call for the judgment that brought some elect into sin and therefore living with the objects of their idolatry and learning about the horror of absolute sin, including their own, and the eternal nature of their sin (they have never repented in the history of evil) proving the necessity of the judgement, helping the sinful elect to see the need for repentance.

*If they did not rebel, then the judgement would have happened at that moment, no?

[Divine Insight]

The parable of the sinful but good seed in Matt 13 teaches us that the good seed must live with the tares until they are mature enough to harvest. Since it also tells us that the harvest is the day of judgement, it is logical to accept that the only maturity that saves anyone for judgement is holiness.

How does this not totally violate the idea of Jesus saving people via unearned "Grace"?

The very idea of a "Judgment Day" violates the idea that anyone is saved via unearned grace. For if they are being saved via unearned grace, then what is there to judge?

If they are being judged, then this can only mean that they are being evaluated based on their own merit.

But it's a total violation of Christianity that anyone can merit their own salvation.

So this entire religion is extremely self-contradictory.

We wouldn't need Jesus to die to pay for our sins if we are going to be judged on our own character in the end.

Christianity contradicts its own ideology.

[Claire Evans]

Why would God, who is Spirit, need something physical like blood for appeasement, or to give Himself permisson to forgive the sins of humanity?

Isn't it far more likely (and more Scriptural) that He looks for more Spiritual qualities in order to forgive sins? Things like basic repentance and a willingness to forgive our fellow humans?

(Hosea 6.6, Micah 6.6-6.8, the Lord's prayer, the Beattitudes, the Parables of Jesus etc, etc, etc.)

This is very much correct. According to the OT, Yahweh was just one of many gods, who were physical beings, who liked blood sacrifices. That's rather pagan.

"It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the LORD" (Lev 1:9 NIV)

God doesn't have senses so how could He smell this aroma?

[JehovahsWitness]

"It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the LORD" (Lev 1:9 NIV)

God doesn't have senses so how could He smell this aroma?

Are you a bible literalist?

[Justin108]

Your question asks about HIS need. GOD needs nothing for HIMself but HE is quite willing to supply that which HIS sinful church needs. If such a method of them living together rather than on different planets would speed the recovery of the sinful elect from their addiction to sin, then I believe HE would choose it for our sakes.

So what you're saying is that he needs nothing for himself, but he DOES need something for US to recover. That still implies God needs something, even if it's not for himself. If a doctor needs antibiotics to cure someone else's infection, it still means he needs something even if that something is not for himself. So back to the OP's question. Why would God need blood? Why would God need anything for that matter? A God that needs something is not omnipotent

[JP Cusick]

Why would God, who is Spirit, need something physical like blood for appeasement, or to give Himself permisson to forgive the sins of humanity?

Isn't it far more likely (and more Scriptural) that He looks for more Spiritual qualities in order to forgive sins? Things like basic repentance and a willingness to forgive our fellow humans?

(Hosea 6.6, Micah 6.6-6.8, the Lord's prayer, the Beattitudes, the Parables of Jesus etc, etc, etc.)

God does not need the physical - people need the physical.

God is a spiritual reality - people are a physical reality.

The Savior had to be a severely suffering Messiah or else humanity would never accept a Messiah who could not share in our own horrible sufferings.

You are correct in the latter part - that forgiving sins is based on the spiritual aspects like repentance and our dealings with other people.

There are two (2) kinds of sins being either physical or spiritual, and thereby there are two (2) kinds of salvation, being physical salvation and spiritual.

[bluethread]

I don't think that it is what Adonai needs, but what we need. The problem with repentance without sacrifice is that it doesn't have as much personal impact. On this thread some are shock by the mere idea of the sheading of animal blood as a memorial. However, many of those same people have no problem with sheading of animal blood for a casual neighborhood gathering. To be fair, few people these days actually do the sheading of blood, but buy their offerings in neat plastic packages at the grocery store. I hear that the gutting of the kill is a common right of passage for young boys in the hunting community. Do you think that there would be such opposition to blood sacrifice, if we all had to gather and prepare our own animal protein?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 9 by bluethread]

I agree. I think if we all had to kill our own animals if we ate meat, those of us that could still bring ourselves to eat meat would at least appreciate that a life has been taken every time we threw a stake on the grill.

(I once saw a clip of a nomadic people, they had no refrigeration of course so that ate the animals a limb at a time, the animal would heal and limp about on three legs until the next roast was needed. I didn't eat meat for a month after that - still feel sick when I think about it.)


JW