Did Christ have free will?

[brianbbs67]

Did Jesus/Yeshua/whateverhisname have free will. We see him quote" the son can only do as the father has instructed". Or was he so devoted to the father it never was an issue?

So, was he locked into the doctrine? Or could he act of his will? I can see examples of both. What do you all see?

[EBA]

GOD created everybody.

Yes, from an absolute point of view.
From a relative point of view, he is still creating us moment by moment.

From my point of view, HE finished creation and rested.

Gen 2:2: kalah: Definition
to be complete, at an end, finished, accomplished, or spent

Yes from an absolute point of view he is finished:

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. (Ecc 1:9-10)

And since, from an absolute point of view all is done, FREE WILL is an illusion!

The only reason to not accept this at face value is the theology that HE is still creating...and at face value the idea HE finished all HIS works of creation is also supported by the fact HE rested, ceased from HIS creative labours. I would ask you now to quote one other verse that supports the idea that we were not created then and are still being created new...

From a relative viewpoint he is still creating, but by your doctrine God is done creating and now man is the creator; is that what you would have me believe?

As I stated, from a relative point of view, i.e man’s point of view, we are still being created.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2Co 5:17)

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. (2Co 5:17)

And it is not by our own imagined free will that we come to Christ:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, - (Eph_1:5 )

Now if we are predestined, to either be in the first resurrection or the resurrection of the damned, how in the world can you possibly have free will? And this is not my doctrine it is God’s:

Eph 1:5 cont.
-according to the good pleasure of HIS WILL,

Who’s will?

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of his own will: (Eph_1:11)

That’s right. His will, not yours, not mine but his.

From a relative point of view, we are certainly at odds with God; we are created to go against his will.

From an absolute point of view, God’s view, we are doing exactly as he has declared. Nothing we do surprises God; God is Sovereign. Take a minute to let that sink in.

[EBA]

Then they re-created their characters as evil by rebelling against GOD by their free will.

That is unscriptural:

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?(Rom 9:21)

Being unscriptural only means that you do not interpret any scripture this way.

No, being unscriptural means it is manmade and goes against scripture. Most people cite a verse and then create a doctrine based around that single verse. The Word of God instructs us to do otherwise.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, BUT which the Holy Ghost teacheth; COMPARING spiritual things with spiritual. (1Co 2:13)

And in your case you cited nothing; you simply offered an unsupported, unscriptural opinion; in other words, a private interpretation.

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (2Pe 1:20)

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, andthere a little:

Well, I have a verse that says flat out HIS creation was finished. And I ask you to find a verse that says it was not.

We all have that verse; The Word of God is given to all of us and I’ve never argued that point. You’re creating an argument with me that doesn’t exist.

I contend that Rom 9:21 refers to HIS predetermining our lives, not our fates because your interpretation supports the blasphemy that HE creates evil people.

You’d have to explain the difference between “predetermining our lives, not our fates� because I’m not really following that logic.

And God creates everything, the sooner you realize that the better off your understanding of spiritual things will be.

He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end. (Ecc 3:11)

According to you Ted, he created us perfect, then we assume the creation and become evil or remain good which is simply contrary to scripture:

1 Corinthians 15
It is sown in dishonour;- (v.43)
It is sown a natural body;- (v.44)
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;- (v.45)
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural;- (v.46)
The first man is of the earth, EARTHY;- (v.47)
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy:- (v.48)
And as we have borne the image of the earthy,- (v.49)
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (v.50)

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7)

And our earthen vessels, which God created, our bodies and our carnal minds are corrupt and dishonorable from the very get go.

But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. (2Co 4:7)

It is God who has “set the world in their heart� and it is God who shall make the world learn righteousness:

With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. (Isa26:9)

So if you are flying a flag of the blasphemy that the GOD of loving righteousness who has no wickedness in HIM, who is light with no darkness in HIM, creates evil by any means at all, for me to salute, you will be disappointed.

Really? “[F]lying a flag of the blasphemy?� It is you who, by one side of your mouth, claims that God is “loving righteousness who has no wickedness in HIM, who is light with no darkness in HIM� but by the other side you say he hates people.

You state in post 197:

Is it logical that the ONE who is love created evil people HE hates?

So which is it Ted; is God “loving righteousness� or does he hate people? Is haterd wicked Ted? Is it dark?

[ttruscott]

Grounds?
Is it logical to think that the ONE who hates evil and is dedicated to its destruction, created it? Is it logical that the ONE who is love created evil people HE hates?

Ted, you invent (or at best try to deduce) a quality and use your invention to justify a theory. That is not a logical base for a sound argument.

No marco, I accept what is revealed about HIM in the Bible... These definitions of HIS character are very orthodox.

I have no underlying theory to lead or mislead me. Go well.

I think I see and underlying theory...

[ttruscott]

Yes, from an absolute point of view.
From a relative point of view, he is still creating us moment by moment.

From my point of view, HE finished creation and rested.

Gen 2:2: kalah: Definition
to be complete, at an end, finished, accomplished, or spent

Yes from an absolute point of view he is finished:

]In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort (psychological stress) experienced by a person who simultaneously holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values.

Most people try to resolve the cognitive dissonance in their life but often Christians just say, "no, these contradictory opposites are really both true at the same time." This moves them from true cognitive dissonance into the doublethink of 1984: "the acceptance of or mental capacity to accept contrary opinions or beliefs at the same time, especially as a result of political indoctrination." Switch political for religious and there you go...

From an absolute point of view, God’s view, we are doing exactly as he has declared. Nothing we do surprises God; God is Sovereign. Take a minute to let that sink in.

I rejected such Calvinism 40 years ago...and have no reason to change my mind now.

[EBA]

In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort (psychological stress) experienced by a person who simultaneously holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values.

Most people try to resolve the cognitive dissonance in their life but often Christians just say, "no, these contradictory opposites are really both true at the same time." This moves them from true cognitive dissonance into the doublethink of 1984: "the acceptance of or mental capacity to accept contrary opinions or beliefs at the same time, especially as a result of political indoctrination." Switch political for religious and there you go...

That would explain this then:

By one side of your mouth, you claim that God is “loving righteousness who has no wickedness in HIM, who is light with no darkness in HIM� but by the other side you say he hates people.

You state in post 197:

Is it logical that the ONE who is love created evil people HE hates?

So which is it Ted; is God “loving righteousness� or does he hate people? Is hatred wicked Ted? Is it dark?

Good answer, I guess.

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 4 by Divine Insight]

But this God isn't supposed to change. He's supposed to be dependable and not be changing his mind on how he's going to offer humans salvation at different points in history. In fact, if our creator changes his mind over time, then how could we be sure that he hasn't changed his mind since the time of Jesus?

Or how can those who believe they will exist in eternity with this god be sure he won't change during that infinite time?

[shnarkle]

I am enjoying the swirl of ideas. Keep them coming.

I think that someone believing they can not choose their own path, is a cop out. Releases them from the responsibility of their choice. Our choices have consequences, good and bad. God seems willing to redirect even the most offensive, if they will be directed. That is a choice and free will.

I think this introduces a different issue in that just becuase we may have free will doesn't mean that the consequences of our free will choice matter, especially when it comes to salvation. This is what Paul's doctrine of election points out. Chapters 8 and 9 are especially relevant. He says "not by will or effort". It isn't we who elect God, God elects us.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 28 by EBA]

We do have a will and we can make choices, but our will can change instantly based on the choices we make. And the choices we make are due to circumstances we face on a daily basis.

I don't see how this negates one's free will.

[EBA]

[Replying to post 28 by EBA]

We do have a will and we can make choices, but our will can change instantly based on the choices we make. And the choices we make are due to circumstances we face on a daily basis.

I don't see how this negates one's free will.

Okay, you brought Peter up in the other thread:

Sure it is. Just becuase someone knows what you're going to do beforehand doesn't negate one's free will, even if that one is you or God. They aren't mutually exclusive propositions. Jesus told Peter he would deny him, but you don't see Peter getting bent because he has no free will now, do you?

So in the following verses, what is Peter's will:

Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended. (Mat 26:33)

and

Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples. (Mat 26:35)

Thanks.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 28 by EBA]

We do have a will and we can make choices, but our will can change instantly based on the choices we make. And the choices we make are due to circumstances we face on a daily basis.

I don't see how this negates one's free will.

Okay, you brought Peter up in the other thread:

Sure it is. Just becuase someone knows what you're going to do beforehand doesn't negate one's free will, even if that one is you or God. They aren't mutually exclusive propositions. Jesus told Peter he would deny him, but you don't see Peter getting bent because he has no free will now, do you?

So in the following verses, what is Peter's will:

Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended. (Mat 26:33)

and

Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples. (Mat 26:35)

Thanks.

Since you haven't bothered to explain why you think this proves Peter doesn't have free will, i will take a guess that you think Peter's ability to change his mind negates his free will? I don't know why that would follow. I don't see how Peter's discovery that he is a coward negates his free will. It seems to suppport the fact that he does have free will.

However, I do think that there is something to be said for the fact that free will isn't all it's cracked up to be. We're all free to do all sorts of things that we would never seriously consider. There are numerous factors that can affect our ability to exercise our free will such as rage, fear, wisdom etc. Sometimes we don't see the other option, whereas sometimes we would never consider the other option.

If we are merely actors playing our roles, then there is no free will, but what about those who peak behind the curtain and see what's really going on? If anyone has free will it would be someone like Adam or Christ.

Eveyone else couild have free will, but there will would be effectively irrelevant in that their own ignoance prevents them from exercising their will effectively. When one knows all of the factors that go into making a decision, they know what decision will be made. When one knows what is the best decision to make, there is no decision to make. Then they are truly free from ignorance, foolishness, bondage, etc.