Did Christ have free will?

[brianbbs67]

Did Jesus/Yeshua/whateverhisname have free will. We see him quote" the son can only do as the father has instructed". Or was he so devoted to the father it never was an issue?

So, was he locked into the doctrine? Or could he act of his will? I can see examples of both. What do you all see?

[brianbbs67]

While we delve this tangent, remember the Hebrew word for Angel is the same as Messenger. They are used interchangeably whether the "messenger" in question is human or divine. It does not denote divine ever. Actual circumstance determine that.

Hi brianbbs67,

I believe we are all angels, either messengers of light or dark.

What say you?

Peace.

That could be true or not. We are all messengers of what we do. God is named by His works as we will be by ours. He is Elohim when He judges and Jehovah when He comforts. That is written.

[ttruscott]

he was a MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING.

Excellent point, so the next question to ask is "From the beginning of WHAT?"

Funny you should ask! I just happen to have an essay about the meaning of beginning from the PCE perspective - how about that?

Christ's pre-existence = our pre-existence...

JOHN'S BEGINNING

For another take on John's understanding of pre-existence... This category has to do with the apostle John's use of the word "beginning" in his first letter:1 John 1:1 - That which was from the beginning… the Word of life.

This introduction is very similar to the one John used in his gospel, which begins with: “In the beginning was the Word.� I believe that both refer to the same time, and that this time is synonymous with the time in Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning. Thus these three references refer to the time before (or at the front of) the six days of the creation of the world.

1 John 2:7 - I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. I can not help but think that John was alluding to Isaiah 40:21 Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded?. If he is not alluding to Isaiah, he certainly is referring to the same truth in my opinion. And is is worth noting that the answers to his questions are presumed to be YES! We have understood since the earth was founded!

1 John 2:14 - I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known Him [that is] from the beginning. It probably is not necessary, but for the last time, “that is� is not in the Greek text. Therefore, in Greek, it reads, “known Him from the beginning.�

1 John 2:24 - Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. It should be noted that in the Bible, “the beginning� usually refers to all the time and events that happened before Genesis 1:2, that is, the time when the angels were created and the rebellion in Paradise took place.

1 John 3:8 - for the devil sinneth from the beginning.
Jamieson, Fausset and Brown's commentary(#27) says: “sinneth from the beginning - from the time that sin began; from the time that he became what he is, the devil.� This must be around the same time as ‘In the beginning’ of Genesis 1:1. At least, it can not be much after.

1 John 3:11 - For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. I believe that John is referring to the loving purpose GOD has for each of us. 1 John 3:23 - And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment. According to 2:7, we heard this commandment “from the beginning.�

Conclusion for John's Beginning.

When the word “beginning� has to do with Jesus or the devil, it means around the same time as Genesis 1:1 , that is, before or at the beginning of the six day creation (depending how one translates the “was - became� in Genesis 1:2).

Are we really warranted in redefining it whenever it refers to us? I know that it has been redefined to fit in with the traditional on earth presuppositions regarding the creation of our spirit, but does this not constitute a twisting or taking Scripture out of context?

According to pre-conception theology, each of these references, by the same author, in the same letter, has the same meaning. To my mind, this is much superior to two different definitions of the same word, in the same letter, by the same author.

Why did John not use two different words if he meant two different times? I do not think that John was mixed up. In fact, I think he knew very well exactly what he was saying. He seems to be very good at saying it over, and over, and over, and over…

[brianbbs67]

Interesting thought there. Only thing I wonder is the rebellion is generally thought to be later? Its in the jots and titles, it the Torah, the words heavenly host are diminished in size to indicate. I am trying to find the rabbi's notes now. I think it was the 2nd day?

[JehovahsWitness]

1 John 3:8 - for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown's commentary(#27) says: “sinneth from the beginning[/color] - from the time that sin began; from the time that he became what he is, the devil.� This must be around the same time as ‘In the beginning’ [of Genesis 1:1. At least, it can not be much after.

Why "must" it have been? Where there any snakes or people when God created the earth? Which day did God create animals and humans? On day one? or two? or three...? or four? Did God create snakes before God created the earth?

[ttruscott]

1 John 3:8 - for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown's commentary(#27) says: “sinneth from the beginning[/color] - from the time that sin began; from the time that he became what he is, the devil.� This must be around the same time as ‘In the beginning’ [of Genesis 1:1. At least, it can not be much after.

Why "must" it have been?

Because the evil ones were thrown down to the earth from heaven as soon as possible after their choice to sin.

Where there any snakes or people when God created the earth? Which day did God create animals and humans? On day one? or two? or three...? or four?

My thesis in this essay is not about the times and events in the garden but about us pre-garden, from the beginning: Isaiah 40:21 Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded...

Did God create snakes before God created the earth?

The snake I take to refer to a demon which Eve thought of as a mentor. All people created in HIS image saw the creation of the whole universe as the testimony of Job 38:7 and Rom 1:20 can be read. But if you mean human people, then not until after the garden was established.

As for when the serpent was created, as a fallen angel he was self created by his free will rebellion prior to the creation of the physical universe which we know because such proof of HIS deity and power could only logically a come after all decisions by faith about YHWH were finished and over due to its great coercive value, disrupting their free will decisions about HIM and replacing faith with proof.

The doctrine that GOD cannot abide evil suggests that the first order of business after the Satanic rebellion and the rebellion of some elect against the judgment was the expulsion of Satan and his crew out of heaven to the earth as in Revelation 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

My order of events is
- Spirits in HIS image were created first
- then the choice of some of these spirits to rebel
- then the creation of the earth and the expulsion of the demons from heaven to Sheol deep in the earth, 2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels having sinned, but having cast them down to Tartarus, in chains of gloomy darkness, delivered them, being kept for judgment; in conjunction with Ps 9:17 which says that the wicked return to Sheol / Hades on their death
- the gradual sowing of the demons and the elect sinners into the world by Christ and the devil as it is written in Matt 13:36-39.

I know your church interprets these verses differently but I don't mention them to argue with the WTS but to show the basis for my thoughts for others who haven't been over it as we have.

[JehovahsWitness]

1 John 3:8 - for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown's commentary(#27) says: “sinneth from the beginning[/color] - from the time that sin began; from the time that he became what he is, the devil.� This must be around the same time as ‘In the beginning’ [of Genesis 1:1. At least, it can not be much after.

Why "must" it have been?

Because the evil ones were thrown down to the earth from heaven as soon as possible after their choice to sin.

Where there any snakes or people when God created the earth? Which day did God create animals and humans? On day one? or two? or three...? or four?

My thesis in this essay is not about the times and events in the garden but about us pre-garden, from the beginning: Isaiah 40:21 Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded...

Has it not been told you from the beginning?
Have you not understood since the earth was founded?
22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.

HAVE YOU* (the you needs to identified FROM CONTEXT) THAT GOD RULES OVER THE EARTH

What in the context of Isaiah 40:21-23 made you apply it to when Satan sinned? Who* was told by whome? Why do you suppose that the information 'being told" happened before any humans existed?

What in the verse either verse (Genesis 1:1) or Isaiah imposes this was the moment satan first sinned and links the two evens (someone being told about God's souvereigty by someone else) was the moment of sin?

Are you absolutely sure you have not taken Isaiah 40 out of context?

[EBA]

The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. (Acts 4:26-28)

Jesus did not have free will.

Peace be to all.

[William]

[Replying to post 57 by EBA]

Jesus did not have free will.

Jesus appeared to have the power of choice and it appears to be limited to his situation.

I am reminded of the part of the story before he was to be arrested and eventually executed. "Take this cup from me" He was fearful of what he had been asked to - and had agreed to - do. (this, from memory [paraphrased?] not quoted from scripture).

"but not my WILL be done but your (The Father GODs) WILL be done" he chose to forgo his own will in favor of trusting his GODs will.

So the story presented definitely shows that Jesus had free will, as far as I can see.

[2timothy316]

I am reminded of the part of the story before he was to be arrested and eventually executed. "Take this cup from me" He was fearful of what he had been asked to - and had agreed to - do. (this, from memory [paraphrased?] not quoted from scripture).

"but not my WILL be done but your (The Father GODs) WILL be done" he chose to forgo his own will in favor of trusting his GODs will.

So the story presented definitely shows that Jesus had free will, as far as I can see.

Yes Jesus had free will but he used it to do the will of his Father. Otherwise Jesus wouldn't have asked for 'this cup to be removed', if one doesn't have a choice why ask? One wouldn't even be aware of a choice if there was no choice.

When Jesus said, 'take this cup from me' it was not fear that made him say this. While I would imagine that Jesus certainly must not have looked forward to his execution. According to Matthew 16:21-23 Jesus was ready and willing to give his life for the whole Earth. So it seems unlikely that he had changed his mind and has suddenly thought saving mankind was no longer worth it.

"And taking along Peter and the two sons of Zebʹe·dee, he began to feel grieved and to be greatly troubled. Then he said to them: “I am deeply grieved, even to death. Stay here and keep on the watch with me.� And going a little way forward, he fell facedown, praying: “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.� Matthew 26:37-39.

So why did Jesus become deeply grieved? He wasn't in fear. It says that he was grieved. Grief is not fear but extreme sadness. The likely answer why he was grieved were the charges. blasphemy. (Mark 14:64) This makes it look like Jehovah sends criminals of the worst kind to save mankind, a blasphemer. Jesus was ready to die but wasn't ready for his Father's good name to be dragged the mud. So Jesus said what he said because he was in disagreement with what Jehovah going to allow him to be charged with. Not because of the sake his own name but for his Father's name.

Jesus was an outstanding Son to his Father. He was also an outstanding example of kindness for all people of the world. Fear wouldn't have motivated him to reconsider anything that was about to happen to him. Looking like he is the reason his Father's name is being tarnished put him at odds with his Creator. Jehovah was going to allow it but Jesus didn't like it one bit that his Father was going to let His own Name be falsely disgraced. That did not stop him though from using his freedom of choice to continue to do his Father's will. This is a testament of what our God Jehovah endures for us and what His Son endured for us. We should thank them everyday.

[paarsurrey1]

[Replying to post 59 by 2timothy316]

2timothy316:
Jesus was an outstanding Son to his Father.

What other Sons and Daughters did Father have, please?
Regards