God kills 70000 Israelites!!!

[alexxcJRO]

According to the perfect inerrant word of God(Bible) the omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent Yahweh kills 70,000 Israelites including countless of innocent(of any wrong-doing, sin) small children, infants for the sin of one man(David) after he or Satan incites him to sin:

2 Samuel 24

“David Enrolls the Fighting Men
24 Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.�
2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.�
3 But Joab replied to the king, “May the LORD your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?�
4 The king’s word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.
5 After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer. 6 They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon. 7 Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beershebain the Negev of Judah.
8 After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.
9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.
10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the LORD, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, LORD, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.�
11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the LORD had come to Gad the prophet, David’s seer: 12 “Go and tell David, ‘This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.’�
13 So Gad went to David and said to him, “Shall there come on you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.�
14 David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.�
15 So the LORD sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the LORD relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.� The angel of the LORD was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.
17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the LORD, “I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.� “

Observation: The account in 1 Chronicles is different then the account in 2 Samuel. (So much for the perfect, inerrant word of God)

Someone would wonder what abominable sin David committed that angered God so much to make him act in such horrendous way: killing tens of thousands of men, woman and children.

Hold on your straps people, here it comes: He did a census!!!

Imagine that. The poor guy did a census and Yahweh in his perfect wisdom, justice, benevolence decided that the punishment suited for this was not to punish in some way the person guilty of the wrong-doing, sin but instead kill 70 000 people innocent of this wrong-doing, sin; kill thousands of small children, infants who are innocent of any wrong-doing, sin.

David even asks a very wise question to God. Why punish others when he was the one guilty:

“I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done?�

Off course the perfect God of the Bible does not answer the question. How would he?!!!

Q: How can anyone be so oblivious to such a huge discrepancy, contradiction between the supposed attributes of God (omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence, perfect wisdom, justice, mercy) and the actions of this being portrait in the Bible?

Q: How can anyone praise, worship a being that inflicts so easily, so much suffering and death to thousands of innocent children? How can one call this being benevolent or wise or loving?

Q: How can anyone in their right mind, with their rational faculties intact defend such actions and not smell the foul stench of nonsense rotting their brain?

[alexxcJRO]

Q: How can anyone praise, worship a being that inflicts so easily, so much suffering and death to thousands of innocent children? How can one call this being benevolent or wise or loving?

How do you know they were really innocent?

Q: Seriously you don't know how a infant is innocent?:bigeyes:

Here again:

Small children, infants, the mentally impaired and non-human animals do not have the rational faculties necessary to understand concepts like right, wrong, good, evil, law.

Therefore logic dictates they cannot be held responsible for any wrong doing and therefore punished under any circumstances whatsoever.
God(Yahweh) is supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent-morally perfect; infinitely wise, just, merciful.

Therefore we would see zero small children or infants or mentally impaired people that suffer because of God(Yahweh) , are punished by God(Yahweh) .

C: Seeing that at least one small children or infant or mentally impaired man/woman/child was punished, suffered and died as a consequence of God(Yahweh)'s actions proves without a shade of doubt that God(Yahweh) if he exists is not omnipotent; omniscient; omnibenevolent-morally perfect; infinitely wise, just, merciful being but a capricious, malevolent bully.

Q: Why are you defending, worshiping a capricious, malevolent bully?

Q: How can you defend a being that promises, orders the slaughtering of countless children, infants; that according to your bible has killed in many horrific ways(drowning->Noah's story, burned by fire->Sodom and Gomorrah's story, plagues->many places through out the bible) countless children, infants? Why have you traded your humanity for a reward? Why do you trust such an unpleasant, sinister character?

[1213]

Small children, infants, the mentally impaired and non-human animals do not have the rational faculties necessary to understand concepts like right, wrong, good, evil, law.

Is there any means to confirm that normal small children can’t understand right and wrong?

C: Seeing that at least one small children or infant or mentally impaired man/woman/child was punished, suffered and died as a consequence of God(Yahweh)'s actions proves without a shade of doubt that God(Yahweh) if he exists is not omnipotent; omniscient; omnibenevolent-morally perfect; infinitely wise, just, merciful being but a capricious, malevolent bully.

Actually, in Biblical point of view, Jesus was innocent and most good human ever. Even he suffered and died according to the Bible. However, he was raised from the death. Maybe, if some other innocent person has died also, he can also be raised from death. Anyway, in Biblical point of view, death is not a problem.

Q: How can you defend a being that promises, orders the slaughtering of countless children, infants; that according to your bible has killed in many horrific ways(drowning->Noah's story, burned by fire->Sodom and Gomorrah's story, plagues->many places through out the bible) countless children, infants? Why have you traded your humanity for a reward? Why do you trust such an unpleasant, sinister character?

How do you know drowning is horrific, have you drowned many times?

I have not traded anything. I just think, God has given life, therefore He has every right to decide how long it lasts. God doesn’t have any responsibility to give eternal life for all.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 219 by bluethread]

Maybe I am reading something into it, but when you said, "thinking in any way it was out of order or character", I thought "it" referred to him performing a human sacrifice.

I was going along with your analogy that human sacrifice was the norm and thus - while not something Abe practiced, in line with the GODs command, Abe would not have thought anything was untoward with the command, with in mind he at the time did not understand the GOD was anti human sacrifice - as you put it.

So what are the main points up to this part of the discussion? Can we list them and see if we are aligned so far?

Well, it being a common social norm, does not mean it was in line with Adonai's ways. A short summary so far is, a person finds him(her)self with a long sought after child. The culture with which that person is familiar sees no problem with killing such a child, and in some cases encourages it as a sign of devotion to an authority figure. Whether the authority figure actually views it that way is in question, at least in the mind of that person. As an object lesson, the authority figure tells that individual to do what is considered socially acceptable as a sign of devotion. That bring us up to the next point.

The reason I said that the doctor was just about to cut off the arm of the baby, is because that is the common procedure in a mid to late term abortion. If you require an analogy that lines up better, I could say that she was just about to insert the coat hanger. However, don't really think that that kind of specificity is necessary to the point. The point is that the act, whatever the details, is halted and the problems with the common social viewpoint have been made.

[alexxcJRO]

Is there any means to confirm that normal small children can’t understand right and wrong?

Nonsensical, sinister ramblings devoid of any logic and compassion in desperate attempt to save what cannot be saved.

Off course a 3 day infant that can’t see properly, can’t talk or walk, can’t speak or understand language, what is happening in his/her surrounding; that has almost zero experience of the world and it is practically helpless and incapable of doing harm can’t understand complex abstract notions like morality, law, salvation, can’t understand God’s requirements for salvation and can’t do morally reprehensible, illegal acts.

Off course a severely mentally impaired man/woman/child who has severe impairment of intelligence and social functioning can’t understand complex abstract notions like morality, law, salvation, can’t understand God’s requirements for salvation and can’t do morally reprehensible, illegal acts.

Off course non-human animals who lack the capacity of understanding abstract thought can’t understand complex abstract notions like morality, law, salvation, can’t understand God’s requirements for salvation and can’t do morally reprehensible, illegal acts.

Q: You really don’t know this dear sir?

Actually, in Biblical point of view, Jesus was innocent and most good human ever. Even he suffered and died according to the Bible. However, he was raised from the death. Maybe, if some other innocent person has died also, he can also be raised from death. Anyway, in Biblical point of view, death is not a problem.

Nonsensical, sinister ramblings devoid of any logic and compassion in desperate attempt to save what cannot be saved.

I am afraid you have not refuted the problem of pain and suffering.
There are verses where God orders humans not to show mercy and compassion on infants, to slaughter and kill, the infants; where God inflicts countless suffering and pain to infants; where God kills countless infants.

"15 So the LORD sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. "

"“Thus says the Lord, ‘About amidnight I am going out into the midst of Egypt,
5 and all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of the Pharaoh who sits on his throne, even to the firstborn of the slave girl who is behind the millstones; all the firstborn of the cattle as well."

“See, I will stir up against them the Medes,
who do not care for silver
and have no delight in gold.
18 Their bows will strike down the young men;
they will have no mercy on infants,
nor will they look with compassion on children.�

“I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD.�

"This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’ “

"Let the offspring of the wicked never be mentioned again.
21 Prepare a place to slaughter his children for the sins of their ancestors; they are not to rise to inherit the land and cover the earth with their cities.
22 “I will rise up against them,� declares the Lord Almighty.

“I will wipe out Babylon’s name and survivors, her offspring and descendants," declares the Lord."

"The LORD says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.� "

“Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.� So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!� the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!� So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.�

"I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted."

"My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out."

"They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything.�

"And the men of Israel turned back against the people of Benjamin and struck them with the edge of the sword, the city, men and beasts and all that they found. And all the towns that they found they set on fire."

"You shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword."

"So Joshua struck the whole land, the hill country and the Negeb and the lowland and the slopes, and all their kings. He left none remaining, but devoted to destruction all that breathed, just as the Lord God of Israel commanded."

"And the Lord gave it also and its king into the hand of Israel. And he struck it with the edge of the sword, and every person in it; he left none remaining in it. "

"And the others came out from the city against them, so they were in the midst of Israel, some on this side, and some on that side. And Israel struck them down, until there was left none that survived or escaped. But the king of Ai they took alive, and brought him near to Joshua. When Israel had finished killing all the inhabitants of Ai in the open wilderness where they pursued them, and all of them to the very last had fallen by the edge of the sword, all Israel returned to Ai and struck it down with the edge of the sword. And all who fell that day, both men and women, were 12,000, all the people of Ai"

Q: Why are you defending a capricious, malevolent bully?

Q: How can you defend a being that promises, orders the slaughtering of countless children, infants; that according to the bible has killed in many horrific ways countless children, infants?

How do you know drowning is horrific, have you drowned many times?

I have not traded anything. I just think, God has given life, therefore He has every right to decide how long it lasts. God doesn’t have any responsibility to give eternal life for all.

Nonsensical, sinister ramblings devoid of any logic and compassion in desperate attempt to save what cannot be saved.

This is not funny dear sir. It’s quite horrific and sinister seeing you trying so desperately to downplay the great suffering and pain of the millions of people who had, have, and will have problems breathing because of myriad of health problems or of the millions of people who have suffocated and died cuz’ of drowning.

Suffocating and having problems breathing is not something joyful dear sir.
I know this for I have asthma. The asthmatic attack is not something joyful but by the contrary.
I imagine suffocating and not being able to get any air because your lungs are filled with salt water, knowing your are going to die is many times horrific and definitely not something joyful.

Q: What about being maimed with a sword? Is that not horrific?
Q: What about burning alive? Is that not horrific?
Q: What about dying from plagues? Is that not horrific?

[William]

[Replying to post 223 by bluethread]

Would the following list sum up what you have been trying to say so far BT

1: The practice of human sacrifice was common in the time of Abe
2: Abe's GOD was anti the practice of human sacrifice.
3: Abe Loved his son but loved his GOD more.
4: Abe's GOD was teaching Abe a lesson regarding Abe's lack of understanding that the GOD was anti-human sacrifice.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 223 by bluethread]

Would the following list sum up what you have been trying to say so far BT

1: The practice of human sacrifice was common in the time of Abe
2: Abe's GOD was anti the practice of human sacrifice.
3: Abe Loved his son but loved his GOD more.
4: Abe's GOD was teaching Abe a lesson regarding Abe's lack of understanding that the GOD was anti-human sacrifice.

That is pretty much it.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 226 by bluethread]

Point of order: Yahweh accepted human/child sacrifice in the Book of Jeremiah and Exodus 13:2.
He changed with Abraham.

Sometime after the Roman occupation he still required animal sacrifice, but the practice has fallen somehow.

Remember Cain was wroth because his sacrifice was unacceptable.

Oh, well.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 226 by bluethread]

Point of order: Yahweh accepted human/child sacrifice in the Book of Jeremiah and Exodus 13:2.
He changed with Abraham.

The term in Ex. 13:2 is Chodesh as in Chodesh cup. It means to set apart, not kill. One does not kill or even destroy the Chodesh cup. One sets it apart as holding an honored place. Regarding what you are referring to in Yeremiayahu, you will have to be more specific. By the way, Avraham lived before either of those references, so unless you are arguing that it was changed to make human sacrifice acceptable, you have it backwards.

Sometime after the Roman occupation he still required animal sacrifice, but the practice has fallen somehow.

Who is the "he" you are referring to and where do you get that? Admittedly, the Samaritans engage in animal sacrifice to this day. However, I do not think that is a correct practice, because it is not being done in Jerusalem.

Remember Cain was wroth because his sacrifice was unacceptable.

Oh, well.

Yes, the sacrifices were to be animal not vegetable. What does that have to do with what we are discussing?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 228 by bluethread]

Ah, so before Yahweh, there were many gods.
After Abraham, there were human sacrifices, yet I have it backwards?
SMH.
What you are referring to is simply an apologist argument. To which I say, so what? It is just some excuse or in your case, denial, for a practice so abhorrent that today it is frowned upon.
That doesn't change the fact it was done.

Oh, well.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 228 by bluethread]

Ah, so before Yahweh, there were many gods.
After Abraham, there were human sacrifices, yet I have it backwards?
SMH.
What you are referring to is simply an apologist argument. To which I say, so what? It is just some excuse or in your case, denial, for a practice so abhorrent that today it is frowned upon.
That doesn't change the fact it was done.

Oh, well.

No, it is my view that between Noach and Avraham people invented deities other than the one known by Noach. Some of those deities required human sacrifice. One of those was Marduk, who was established as the state deity by Nimrod. Though I do not think Avraham took part in that practice, it very well could have caused some confusion in his mind, I do not believe that human sacrifice was ever approved of by Adonai. If you are throwing animal sacrifice in here, that is another issue.