"We are all sinners..."

[Willum]

Jews and Christians claim we are all sinners, but that is a belief according to the Bible.

Is it right for them to be able to be able to claim, "We are all sinners," when a sin is supposedly something aberrant and vile?

I don't want to be called aberrant and vile.

When they claim "We are all sinners," are they only referring to themselves? or are they saying that we, whom don't follow their religion, engage in the practices they adhere to - indeed brag about?

I, for one, don't sin, just as I don't make wishes on Leprechaun Gold.

It seems to me, if they wish to claim, even brag about being born in sin, it is their right, but to make this sweeping claim about the rest of us is insulting.

Is there any way, if you don't believe in the Bible's definition of sin, that you can sin?

[JehovahsWitness]

Is it right for them to be able to be able to claim, "We are all sinners," when a sin is supposedly something aberrant and vile?

What a strange question; what do you mean "Is it right for them to be able to ... claim, "We are all sinners ...?"" do you mean "Do they have the RIGHT to make such claims?" (ie is it appropriate) .... or simply "Are they correct in their claim?".

There is I believe a scripture in the bible that states, I am not applying this scripture to anyone here on this forum, just drawing attention to the content of the book under discussion (and I quote) "Anyone that says he doesn't sin is a liar". Naturally, anyone that reads that in the bible is free to reject it and/or interpret it as they see fit.

Is it "correct and appropriate" to make such a claim? *I* haven't, the author of the bible made the claim. I happend to believe the author of the bible is Almighty God himself, expressing His thoughts throuh human "secretaries). Does HE does have the right to make the claim. Yes. Do I have the right to say I believe the claim to be true? I can't see why not.

I don't believe being a "sinner" makes me or anyone automatically vile in God's eyes, just imperfect with all the limitations that entails. Those that do are perfectly within their rights to hold that to particular interpretation, even if they are wrong. Should people refrain from speaking because it might potentially offend the sensibilities of someone else ? How do you feel about blasphemy laws?


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Is there any way, if you don't believe in the Bible's definition of sin, that you can sin?

Yes, I believe so.

The way I interpret the notion of sin is basically a person's thoughts and actions falling short of divine standards of perfection. If the above is true and accurate it is totally irrelevant if a person believes in sin or not. It's rather like someone telling a traffic patrol policeman that they "don't believe in speed limits" therefore they could not possibly have been speeding. Or someone being warned not to jump of a high building replying "It's okay, I don't believe in gravity!".

Truth is not subject to belief, it is absolute and will be applied irrespective of whether someone believes in it or not.




Further reading The truth about sin
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2010414

RELATED POSTS

How is it that all humans came to be sinners?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 000#841000

If Adam and Eve were created perfect, how could they sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 903#873903

[Divine Insight]

The way I interpret the notion of sin is basically a person's thoughts and actions falling short of divine standards of perfection.

This sounds great as a statement of pure philosophy, but in the real world it fails miserably.

Why? Because it would be impossible for a human living on earth to ever be perfect.

You might say, "So that only proves that all humans are sinners".

But that would be extremely naive because it would also prove that it's not the human's fault. And therefore the human cannot be blamed.

So the idea that humans would be judged by a God for not being perfect is utterly absurd.

Therefore any meaningful concept of "sin" where a person is going to be "judged" to be an intentional sinner would need to be something far more intentional than just merely being imperfect due to the nature of their existence.

Once we bring the concept of judgement into the picture we must change the concept of sin from being a pure philosophical notion of perfection into becoming a willing and knowing act of intentional action.

This changes everything, including your analogy with a speed limit. Now if the road is unmarked and you honestly don't even know that there is a speed limit on the road and you get caught speeding. Then "Ignorance of the law" actually becomes a viable defense. It is no longer sufficient to merely show that you were speeding, but now it becomes necessarily to show that you knew that you were breaking a law.

Finally, no sane and decent human would ever suggest that people who break the speed limit should be crucified on a pole until they die.

In other words, even rational people do not condone cruel and unusual punishment for petty offenses. Yet Christianity requires that their God condemns all sinners to eternal hell no matter how petty their crime might have been.

So the Christian God cannot be said to be reasonable, decent, or even humane because Christians hold that this God will condemn all sinners to eternal hell, no matter what their sins might be.

It's an unrealistic and utterly absurd religious paradigm that clearly cannot be true as the Christians portray it to be.

Their God would need to be the most inhumane, uncaring demon that ever existed.

Because, remember, this God doesn't hand out traffic tickets. If this God catches you speeding you go directly to hell, do not pass Go, do not collect $200, just go directly to hell.

No mercy. An unmerciful God to be certain. Precisely the opposite of what the Christians would like for their God to be.

[JehovahsWitness]

The way I interpret the notion of sin is basically a person's thoughts and actions falling short of divine standards of perfection.

... it would be impossible for a human living on earth to ever be perfect. You might say, "So that only proves that all humans are sinners". But that .... would also prove that it's not the human's fault. And therefore the human cannot be blamed. .

Which is why Jesus came to save us, not to condemn us or blame us. I'm sure even as an atheist that you know at least the basics of the gospel message.

Luke 5: 31-32
And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are in health have no need of a physician; but they that are sick. I am not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.

JW

[Divine Insight]

The way I interpret the notion of sin is basically a person's thoughts and actions falling short of divine standards of perfection.

This sounds great as a statement of pure philosophy, but in the real world it fails miserably.

Why? Because it would be impossible for a human living on earth to ever be perfect.

You might say, "So that only proves that all humans are sinners".

But that would be extremely naive because it would also prove that it's not the human's fault. And therefore the human cannot be blamed. .

Which is why Jesus came to save us, not to condemn us or blame us. I'm sure even as an atheist that you know at least the basics of the gospel message.


JW

If that were true then we'd all be saved and perfection would reign supreme.

Clearly that has not happened.

So your idea that Jesus came to save us from being imperfect humans fails.

And even you recognize that we could not be 'blamed' for our imperfections. You claim that Jesus did not come to blame us.

Fine. If that's the case then we are not to blame.

So why should any human be cast into eternal hell for something they cannot be blamed for?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 6 by Divine Insight]

QUESTION: If we are all imperfect and bound to sin, does that mean that God is obliged out of fairness to automatically save everyone, irrespective of their actions and choices?

Not automatically no. One of the most well known verses in the bible reads as follows:

JOHN 3:16
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life

So while God is not asking imperfect humans to be perfect (in the sense of being "sinless" in every word, though and deed, something that would for the present be impossible for them), God does have requirements if a person wants his approval, namely to "exercise faith". People can learn what it means to "exercise faith" by studying the bible.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 6 by Divine Insight]

QUESTION: If we are all imperfect and bound to sin, does that mean that God is obliged out of fairness to automatically save everyone, irrespective of their actions and choices?

Not automatically no. One of the most well known verses in the bible reads as follows:

JOHN 3:16
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life

So what? You seem to be failing to realized that if this Creator God is the one who threw innocent humans into this impossible predicament, then he's the one responsible for their situation. Why should he destroy humans for being in precisely the predicament he placed them in?

Your excuses for this God are not justified.

So while God is not asking imperfect humans to be perfect (in the sense of being "sinless" in every word, though and deed, something that would for the present be impossible for them), God does have requirements if a person wants his approval, namely to "exercise faith". People can learn what it means to "exercise faith" by studying the bible.

Fine. If you want to claim that this is the story of Christianity, then sin and morality cannot play any role at all.

By the way, you seem to be ignoring the fact that Jesus himself taught that the righteous shall go the way of eternal life whilst the unrighteous will go the way of everlasting punishment.

Therefore Jesus is clearly not in harmony with your chosen theology.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 8 by Divine Insight]

QUESTION: Does exercising faith in Jesus involve "sin and morality"?

Yes, while Christians cannot free themselves from Adamic (inherited) sin, this does not mean that humans are not able to make moral decisions and moderate their actions. Exercising faith in Jesus would involve learning about him, obeying his commandments and modeling our lives after him. Granted, no believer can do so "perfectly" but God does require Christian live a morally upright life by His standards and avoid practises that God deems abhorrent and harmful.

Only those that make the needed effort will put themselves in line for everlasting life.


JW


Further reading: A Godly View of Moral Cleanness
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2000802


Further reading: FAITH What It Is and Why We Need It?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102013280#h=8

For more information please go to other posts related to...

FAITH, TRUTH and ...RELIGION

[Willum]

[Replying to post 8 by Divine Insight]

So I think I'll step in a save JW, by turning it back to topic. (You can thank me with a suitable MPG donation.)
Do Jews and Christians have the right to accuse non-Jews and Christians of being sinners according to their Bible or belief?

Especially when sin is such a horrible thing?

Do they have the right to say: "everybody is rotten," (aka "everybody sins") just because they believe that they are?