"We are all sinners..."

[Willum]

Jews and Christians claim we are all sinners, but that is a belief according to the Bible.

Is it right for them to be able to be able to claim, "We are all sinners," when a sin is supposedly something aberrant and vile?

I don't want to be called aberrant and vile.

When they claim "We are all sinners," are they only referring to themselves? or are they saying that we, whom don't follow their religion, engage in the practices they adhere to - indeed brag about?

I, for one, don't sin, just as I don't make wishes on Leprechaun Gold.

It seems to me, if they wish to claim, even brag about being born in sin, it is their right, but to make this sweeping claim about the rest of us is insulting.

Is there any way, if you don't believe in the Bible's definition of sin, that you can sin?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 40 by Justin108]

Clearly I am incapable of answering you. Fortunately, this is a public forum, I will have to defer my inadequacy in the subject matters to others, I am truly confounded by your brilliant arguments.
It does indicate other things, however.

[McCulloch]

Is it right for them to be able to be able to claim, "We are all sinners," when a sin is supposedly something aberrant and vile?

Much of this discussion has focused on what is meant by sin. And rightly so.

But I'd like to look at what might have been meant by we all. Does a fetus need forgiveness? Is there an age of accountability, before which sins don't matter? Is ignorance an excuse, as Willum believes?

[William]

[Replying to post 37 by Willum]

But it isn't about me.

Isn't it?

The line I have trouble with is the expression, "We are all sinners."
So yes, I take umbrage with it, but you should to.

What if it is specifically an invention in order to provoke others to 'take umbrage'?

Jews and Christians (JCs) are all sinners. That's what their Bible says. There Bible says they are bad people, unworthy people. There is nothing in any non-JCs philosophy that tells them they are bad (necessarily), so what should non-JCs accept having that mud slung on them?

I don't know. I don't even know how peoples can like bondage and spanking.
Maybe it is a deep seated need to be noticed and all publicity is good publicity.
Maybe they get it drummed into them as children and essentially begin their life's journey as guilt-ridden worthless souls and this in turn promotes the need within them to have all others feel the same way about themselves?

The bible also tells of GOD's great love for creation. So maybe the bits we notice and are drawn to are indicators of internal goings on...and even preferences too dark to notice without the light of self honesty?

Are you a bad and unworthy person?

I do not see that I am. Others close to me do not show any sign that this is the case. I don't see any sign that this is the case in those close to me.

I think of myself as an aspect of the Earth Entity, intrigued by the experience of life as a human being. Who could honestly judge that as 'bad' and 'unworthy'? I would be lying to my self if I were to think such a thing.

So 'lying to myself' or 'others lying to me about my self' is not an issue for me. All that matters is how I think about my self - how I identify my self as - and in my case, that amounts to not giving a brass razoo about what others think about me in terms of the negativity of their belief systems.

'We are all sinners' against each other, with the potential to become saints in relation to one another. That is the lot of humanity, presently speaking - mostly somewhere in the middle position.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 42 by McCulloch]

Not so much, the definition of sin comes from the Bible, if others wish to discuss what sin means as a tangent to the OP, that is fine with me... I read the Bible for my definition, and that's sufficient for me.

Discussion about the definition is not interesting to myself, thought I do not shirk others discussing it.

I like your idea about focusing on the "we all." (Though as a point of order - I am discussing a concept,sin, that I don't believe in, so I believe there is no one to sin against, therefore no sin, therefore no one sins.)

Bringing me to the question: What is so important about sin that Jews and Christians need to insist we all do it?

I certainly don't, and 50% of our voters also agree, we all don't sin.
From my observation, even if you take God from the equation, it is much easier NOT to sin morally, than it is NOT to sin with God in the picture.

So why must we all sin in the Judeo-Christian world?

[marco]

Usually your responses are poor arguments void of any logic. This time, however, you just give up and don't offer any argument whatsoever. Oddly enough, that's actually progress. Proud of you, Willum. Keep it up.

Moderator Comment


Avoid insulting other posters. Offering praise sarcastically isn't in the spirit of the forum. We must try to be civil. If you find flaws in arguments, point them out; don't mock the posters.


Please review the Rules.


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[dio9]

[Replying to post 1 by Willum]

Yes we are all sinners . Criminals, who are guilty of infanticide , patricide, and Deicide . Freud said our original sin is Diecide, killing the tyrannical Father , and the guilt that follows, its complicated. So we have a love hate relationship in our archaic subconscious going on.and yes we all suffer from this.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 46 by dio9]

Nope, not me, should I be contacting the police?
Your one-liner needs paragraphs of explanation, please.

[marco]

[Replying to post 1 by Willum]

Yes we are all sinners . Criminals, who are guilty of infanticide , patricide, and Deicide . Freud said our original sin is Diecide, killing the tyrannical Father , and the guilt that follows, its complicated. So we have a love hate relationship in our archaic subconscious going on.and yes we all suffer from this.

Freud made many mistakes. We all make mistakes, given that we are human, but most errors make no difference.

To emphasise our "sins" is an old method of getting us to feel bad about ourselves. We should be happy with what we achieve and forget our false steps.

[otseng]

Moderator Intervention

Willum, Justin108,

I'm going to lock this thread and give both of you a warning if you two cannot stop the bickering.


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Moderator interventions do not count as a strike against any posters. They are given at the discretion of a moderator when he or she feels that some sort of intervention is required.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 48 by marco]

You are certainly correct, the concept of sin does make us feel bad about ourselves.
(I am deliberately softening your imperative of "getting" us to feel bad about ourselves V/R.)

But why would God, presumably, need us to feel bad about ourselves? It is clearly some kind of driver whether deliberate or intrinsic to the religion.

You are saying, "We all sin," is a effort to commiserate...
We can all feel guilty or bad, or whatever together.

Forgive me, you have touched on a point I do not have solid grasp on, though I can see there is something to it...
Thoughts?