Aren't Jehovah's Witnesses people truthful witnesses?

[paarsurrey1]

Aren't Jehovah's Witnesses people truthful witnesses, please?

1 Corinthians

12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God* that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
http://biblehub.com/niv/1_corinthians/15.htm

Jesus did not die on the Cross, he survived, so as per Paul's own argument Pauline-Christianity's "faith is futile". Right, please?
Please correct me if I am wrong with reasonable arguments.
________
*Jehovah

This entails that the Jehovah-Witnesses' people who believe in Paul and the Pauline-Christianity, are false witnesses as long as, and if they have no concrete evidence/s of Jesus, not dying on the Cross.Right, please?
Please correct me if I am wrong with reasonable arguments.

Regards

[liamconnor]

Aren't Jehovah's Witnesses people truthful witnesses, please?

1 Corinthians

12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God* that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
http://biblehub.com/niv/1_corinthians/15.htm

Jesus did not die on the Cross, he survived, so as per Paul's own argument Pauline-Christianity's "faith is futile". Right, please?
Please correct me if I am wrong with reasonable arguments.
________
*Jehovah

This entails that the Jehovah-Witnesses' people who believe in Paul and the Pauline-Christianity, are false witnesses as long as, and if they have no concrete evidence/s of Jesus, not dying on the Cross.Right, please?
Please correct me if I am wrong with reasonable arguments.

Regards

No doubt the "please" and "regards" typical of your posts ingratiate people, still, the question is pretty basic. A simple search on the internet....or better, a more thorough reading of the subject...will show where the problem lies.


Read ALL of Paul. Obviously Paul believed Jesus died on the cross.

If language is a difficulty, consult translations.

I recommend one do this before posting beginner questions.

[For_The_Kingdom]

Every group or Church or religious denomination claims to have the whole truth, and not one of any of them are accurate.

There is a difference between claiming to have the truth, and claiming to be the truth. The Watch Tower & Tract Society (JWs) claims to be the truth, which is blasphemy.

The JW's being mistaken about 1914 and 1975 is based on trying to know the times, so their's was an honest mistake.

True prophets of God (which WTS claimed to be) don't make "honest" mistakes regarding prophecies.

At least the JW's do not have the crazy nonsense doctrine that many people (Christians) are going to just disappear as they get transported into Heaven by the ridiculous notion of a RAPTURE.

At least true Christians don't have the crazy nonsense doctrine that people who have rejected Christ while living on earth will get a "second chance" at salvation after they are resurrected from the dead.

The JW'a do have a lot of truth, which other denominations do not have, and the JW's do have some of the most dedicated members of any religion on earth.

I will give them that; JW's do the most when it comes to getting their false Biblical doctrine out to the masses. Second-best-to-none when it comes to that.

[polonius]

Can one mention the prophecies that "Watchtower & Tract Society" supported but are falsified, please?

Regards

Google "Jehovah's Witnesses 1975".

RESPONSE:

“There is absolutely no ground for Bible students to question that the consummation of this Gospel age is now even at the door, and that it will end as the Scriptures foretell in a great time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation. We see the participants in this great crisis banding themselves together ... The great crisis, the great clash ... that will consume the ecclesiastical heavens and the social earth, is very near.� "Now Is Our Salvation Nearer", The Watch Tower, May 1, 1914.

“Since its formation in the 1870s, the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society has claimed that God has chosen the organization from among the churches to fill a special role in the consummation of prophetic history. Charles Taze Russell, a prolific writer and founder of the Bible Student movement, viewed himself as a "mouthpiece" of God and later as the embodiment of the "faithful and wise servant" of the parable of Matthew 24:45-47�

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watch_Tow ... Background

[JP Cusick]

Aren't Jehovah's Witnesses people truthful witnesses, please?

1 Corinthians

12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God* that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
http://biblehub.com/niv/1_corinthians/15.htm

Jesus did not die on the Cross, he survived, so as per Paul's own argument Pauline-Christianity's "faith is futile". Right, please?
Please correct me if I am wrong with reasonable arguments.
________
*Jehovah

This entails that the Jehovah-Witnesses' people who believe in Paul and the Pauline-Christianity, are false witnesses as long as, and if they have no concrete evidence/s of Jesus, not dying on the Cross.Right, please?
Please correct me if I am wrong with reasonable arguments.

Regards

I do not see why any group has to be completely accurate and flawless and perfect, because no group or person can ever live up to that extreme.

I know that many people and virtually every group claims to have it all - and it is just vain nonsense.

The JW's preach the coming Kingdom of God on earth as it is in Heaven, and that is the primary thrust and message of the JW's and in that they are correct.

Everything else is just assorted details which do not need to be accurately perfect.

The idea that Jesus died or did not die on the cross is honestly debatable and there is no absolute certainty. Jesus could have died and then medically resuscitated, or resurrected as a miracle, or maybe the Roman soldiers only thought He was dead, or the spear piercing His side drained the fluid which saved His life, but we are fairly certain that the people at that time thought that Jesus was dead because they put His body into a grave and sealed the grave with a stone, so some how Jesus either recovered or He came back to life and that is the whole point - yes Jesus some how survived the crucifixion = amen.

[2timothy316]

Aren't Jehovah's Witnesses people truthful witnesses, please?

1 Corinthians

12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God* that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
http://biblehub.com/niv/1_corinthians/15.htm

Jesus did not die on the Cross, he survived, so as per Paul's own argument Pauline-Christianity's "faith is futile". Right, please?
Please correct me if I am wrong with reasonable arguments.
________
*Jehovah

This entails that the Jehovah-Witnesses' people who believe in Paul and the Pauline-Christianity, are false witnesses as long as, and if they have no concrete evidence/s of Jesus, not dying on the Cross.Right, please?
Please correct me if I am wrong with reasonable arguments.

Regards

I do not see why any group has to be completely accurate and flawless and perfect, because no group or person can ever live up to that extreme.

I know that many people and virtually every group claims to have it all - and it is just vain nonsense.

It's not the mistakes that a religion makes that I personally look at. Religions are made up of people and since there are no perfect people there are no perfect religions. However, what that group of people do when they have been proven to make a mistake is highly important to me. Even when it comes to my personal friendships, what a person does after they make a mistake is also very important to me.

So when a religion is still trying to push Hellfire even though it has been shown to be unsupported by the Bible, to me this is way more unacceptable than people getting a date for the Day of Jehovah wrong. People that follow the creature rather than the Creator will fall away from following truth. That is why religion must be put in it's proper place. Doctrine can't be placed above the Almighty and not above His Word the Bible. If a religion or people in general are not patient for God to reveal His plans and are not paying attention to the Bible then mistakes are made. We are imperfect people, mistakes are going to happen. Again, what a person or a people do after that mistake is what is important.

Also, how others treat others after they have made and admitted to that mistake is also important. Those that hold grudges or keep throwing mistakes into another person's face is not a Christ-like attitude. God says of sins that we have corrected, "Once again you will have compassion on us. You will trample our sins under your feet and throw them into the depths of the sea." Micah 7:19. The Bible says to "Be imitators of God, therefore, as beloved children." Ep 5:1. Those that have sinned in the past and turned from their course we should follow God's example and toss their sins into the depths of the sea. Do you know why the Bible said the depths of the sea? Because anything there can't be retrieved. Only we can resurrect our own sin by returning to doing that sin. Yet if we don't keep doing that particular sin then that sin is gone. Never to be remembered or held against us.

So those that keep digging up the past mistakes a throwing them into peoples then they will be treated the same way they have treated others only, not by men but by someone else much more powerful. "For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Matthew 7:2. What if Jesus was like those that hold grudges? No one would live. I wish people that do hold grudges would think about that.

"Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity." Colossians 3:14. That is where perfection is, not in throwing people mistakes back into their faces.

[tam]

Peace to you JP (and Thia!),

Which is why folk should go directly to Christ who is the TRUTH and not to ANY religion. Christ doesn't make guesses as to prophecy, he speaks truth, nothing less.

I hear stuff like that often, but actually going to Christ is not so simple as people claim.

Some people say Christ but others say going to Jesus, and some say they go directly to God or to the Father, and I see all of that as vain and self deception.

The only one (1) that any of us can go to is our own sincerity, in that we need to be truthful to our self, and we need to be honest with our own conscience, and then we can only hope that we are acceptable and accurate.

And yet, how do you reconcile your words with the words of Christ?

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink." John 7:37


Seems to me that Christ is telling us TO come to Him. How can it be vain or self-deceiving to do as He says to do?


He also said, "No one comes to the Father except through me."

So again, He is saying that we must come to Him. Even the Father said, "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."

Attempting to guess at times and dates makes the one who does so reprehensible for misleading many. As does fabricating the truth to make a version of it. This is why we shouldn't put our 'trust in earthling man to whom no salvation belongs'.

I agree not to trust any other person for our own faith and our own salvation, but to trust other people for other things is okay some times, and some other times it is not wise.

Yes, like a mechanic or a doctor (for ailments of the flesh), etc. Even though these ones can and do make mistakes as well.

To mislead people about the end times (or other times) is not a big deal, because mistakes are natural and normal, and people do love to be right even when it is a senseless gamble, and it is not a sin to make a mistake.

And we can not say that they misled people and thereby they are sinful and they need to be damned - no - especially when each person is responsible for our self.

They got the time and date wrong - well boohoo - why did people believe the time and date in the first place? and why will not the people stop following along like sheep?

People believed them in their 'mistake' because people were listening to men instead of to Christ. Which was Thia's point, wasn't it? That we should be listening to Christ... and not to men?

And of course we can say that they (those religious leaders) misled people. You are right that we cannot say that they are damned (and Thia never said that to begin with); but we can certainly say that they mislead people. Because that is what they DO; that is simply stating a fact.


Hence, we are to listen to CHRIST; and not to men. Test all things against Christ: the Truth.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JP Cusick]

And yet, how do you reconcile your words with the words of Christ?

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink." John 7:37

Seems to me that Christ is telling us TO come to Him. How can it be vain or self-deceiving to do as He says to do?

He also said, "No one comes to the Father except through me."

So again, He is saying that we must come to Him. Even the Father said, "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."

Hence, we are to listen to CHRIST; and not to men. Test all things against Christ: the Truth.

I like this question and I like the reasoning.

When Christ tells us to come to Him then Christ tells us exactly how to do that.

Christ said to seek the truth, seek after righteousness, seek the Kingdom, love thy enemies, give to the needy, because yes those are ways to Christ.

My complain is the claim of going to Christ as a person, instead of going to Christ through those ways.

Jesus declared that many people will claim to know Christ - and He will respond by saying that He never knew them, see Matthew 7:23

And if we look at that text correctly then it says that people would use the name of Jesus and of Christ, but we are to do the right works and do the will of God.

[tam]

Peace to you timothy,

[Replying to post 65 by 2timothy316]

It's not the mistakes that a religion makes that I personally look at. Religions are made up of people and since there are no perfect people there are no perfect religions. However, what that group of people do when they have been proven to make a mistake is highly important to me. Even when it comes to my personal friendships, what a person does after they make a mistake is also very important to me.

So when a religion is still trying to push Hellfire even though it has been shown to be unsupported by the Bible, to me this is way more unacceptable than people getting a date for the Day of Jehovah wrong.

And what about false doctrines that the WTS pushes that are not supported by the bible (nor by Christ - that are in fact refuted by Christ directly)?

For instance, the two-hope doctrine: a doctrine that we can KNOW is wrong because it is used to convince people that they should disobey Christ.

Christ who says, 'keep doing this (eating and drinking of his body and blood) in remembrance of me'; where the WTS says that most Christians are NOT to eat or drink of Him.

But how can that be?!

Did Christ not say to His apostles, 'Go and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you."


He told them to eat and drink of His body and blood, yes? So why are people listening to a religion now telling them to do the exact opposite?


This false teaching is continued, based upon a couple of other false teachings (a - that eating and drinking is only done by the anointed - even though the apostles were not anointed when they ate and drank and even though Christ never taught that; and b - that there are only 144 000 anointed).

Instead of owning up to these mistakes (when the JW membership outgrew 144 000 people), another doctrine was created, stating that most were not anointed and therefore, were not included in the new covenant. [/i] They then taught these so-called 'non-anointed Christians' not to partake. And what did the people do? They stopped partaking. They had been partaking - then they stopped.

Not in obedience to Christ (or even the bible), but in obedience to men.


So contrary to what JP said earlier (that the details may not matter so much), the details DO matter. Especially when those details teach people to actively disobey Christ. To look at and listen to men, instead of to Christ.

People that follow the creature rather than the Creator will fall away from following truth.

And since the Creator said to listen to His Son (the Truth), and that Son said to come to and follow Him... then He is the Truth we are supposed to be following. Right?

That is why religion must be put in it's proper place. Doctrine can't be placed above the Almighty and not above His Word the Bible.

Doctrine cannot be placed above the Almighty and not above His Word...the Christ.

If a religion or people in general are not patient for God to reveal His plans and are not paying attention to the Bible then mistakes are made.

Is it not Christ who God told us to pay attention to? To listen to?

Also, how others treat others after they have made and admitted to that mistake is also important. Those that hold grudges or keep throwing mistakes into another person's face is not a Christ-like attitude.

Agreed.

(Although if a person or thing is claiming to be the Truth, then the existence of those mistakes disprove what must logically be a false claim.)

God says of sins that we have corrected, "Once again you will have compassion on us. You will trample our sins under your feet and throw them into the depths of the sea." Micah 7:19. The Bible says to "Be imitators of God, therefore, as beloved children." Ep 5:1. Those that have sinned in the past and turned from their course we should follow God's example and toss their sins into the depths of the sea. Do you know why the Bible said the depths of the sea? Because anything there can't be retrieved. Only we can resurrect our own sin by returning to doing that sin. Yet if we don't keep doing that particular sin then that sin is gone. Never to be remembered or held against us.

So a religion that would keep records of sins or past mistakes even after a person has repented of those sins... that religion would not be behaving in a Christ-like manner? Would that be correct?


*I agree that hellfire is a false doctrine, and feel as you do that this should be evident (according to love; according to what is written; according to Christ); but then, so is it evident that we should be partaking of Christ as He commands (without which we have no life in ourselves, as He also said).



Peace again to you and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[For_The_Kingdom]

And yet, how do you reconcile your words with the words of Christ?

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink." John 7:37

Seems to me that Christ is telling us TO come to Him. How can it be vain or self-deceiving to do as He says to do?

He also said, "No one comes to the Father except through me."

So again, He is saying that we must come to Him. Even the Father said, "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."

Hence, we are to listen to CHRIST; and not to men. Test all things against Christ: the Truth.

I like this question and I like the reasoning.

When Christ tells us to come to Him then Christ tells us exactly how to do that.

Christ said to seek the truth, seek after righteousness, seek the Kingdom, love thy enemies, give to the needy, because yes those are ways to Christ.

My complain is the claim of going to Christ as a person, instead of going to Christ through those ways.

Jesus declared that many people will claim to know Christ - and He will respond by saying that He never knew them, see Matthew 7:23

And if we look at that text correctly then it says that people would use the name of Jesus and of Christ, but we are to do the right works and do the will of God.

Bottom line: A person can have "Christ" and not be affiliated with the Watch Tower & Tract Society. Becoming a Jehovah's Witness is not a requirement whatsoever for eternal salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ.

If Jehovah's Witnesses don't acknowledge the bottom line^ and teach, think, and believe in their hearts otherwise, then they are the ones that are Christ was talking about when he said "I never knew you".

[2timothy316]

Peace to you timothy,

[Replying to post 65 by 2timothy316]

It's not the mistakes that a religion makes that I personally look at. Religions are made up of people and since there are no perfect people there are no perfect religions. However, what that group of people do when they have been proven to make a mistake is highly important to me. Even when it comes to my personal friendships, what a person does after they make a mistake is also very important to me.

So when a religion is still trying to push Hellfire even though it has been shown to be unsupported by the Bible, to me this is way more unacceptable than people getting a date for the Day of Jehovah wrong.

And what about false doctrines that the WTS pushes that are not supported by the bible (nor by Christ - that are in fact refuted by Christ directly)?

For instance, the two-hope doctrine: a doctrine that we can KNOW is wrong because it is used to convince people that they should disobey Christ.

Apparently you don't understand what the Bible teaches therefore do not understand what JWs teach.

“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.� (John 10:16)

Both folds listen to Jesus' voice so your statement above is incorrect about what we teach and you are misrepresenting what JWs teach on purpose or you still can't grasp it.

Or do you not know what the folds are? If remember correctly you have been shown all this before and yet still refuse what the Bible teaches when it contradicts your doctrine. Remind me again, do you believe the whole Bible to be the Word of God and therefore support by Jesus Christ? Should I start linking to threads that use the Bible that you will not accept from posts in the past? The Bible is not subjective or relative. That means that the 144,000 and the Great Crowd are two folds who listen to the same voice as the Bible says. At anyrate, what you are calling false is your opinion because you are falsely saying that you know, but saying that you know is not true. You can only have an opinion because the proof will not come until the Great Tribulation then we will really know who is right and who is wrong. As it stands right now your doctrine is not Biblically sound as it directly ignores many scriptures such as John 10:16 and relies on personal interpretation.