Why are some immune to miracles?

[Willum]

This is a very neat reply by JP:

Yet another way to look at it is:

If Jesus arrived today, as he allegedly did 2000 years ago, would anyone believe him? Would you believe him?
Put yourself in your own shoes.
Some migrant/refugee claims she had a virgin birth, several years after the conception event took place.
The father only knows he is not the father.

Claims of healing that have less aplomb than evangelistic roadshows.
He gets tortured somewhere and comes back from the dead, according to some source.
Assume this is recorded.

Do you believe it?

Why do you believe it out of a Book written 300 years after the fact?

This is one of the big miracles, because the Gospel accounts do stand the test of time.

Many other beliefs and religions and philosophies have come and gone - yet this one about Jesus Christ remains and endures.

It is even arguable that this same Jesus of 2000 years ago is indeed the most powerful person in the entire world now into the 21st century.

The Gospels certainly do stand the test of time, despite their flaws.
Is there a miracle at work allowing many to believe what, to the plainly logical mind, is preposterous? Why are some of us immune to this miracle, or capable of changing our minds?

Or are those of us skeptics, just definitely not part of the chosen (some of us gratefully)?

[bjs]

[Replying to Willum]

Your take on the miraculous is… interesting.

I take it that you consider yourself to have a “�plainly logical mind,� and for someone to disagree with you personally about religious matters, or the Gospels specifically, then that is miraculous.

How far do you go with this?

What about science? If you accept string theory and someone else accepts a quantum gravity theory, would that be miraculous?

On this site you have put forward some uncommon theories about Hebrew. If someone who actually knows Hebrew disagrees with your understanding of the language, is that miraculous?

If you are a democrat and someone else genuinely thinks the republican political philosophies are better for the country, would that be miraculous?

If you like supreme pizza and someone else thinks plain cheese pizza taste better, would that be miraculous?

How much can someone disagree with your “plainly logical mind� before it becomes miraculous?

Is it at all possible for someone else to have a “plainly logical mind� and still disagree with you?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 11 by bjs]

Not really, as has been posited by others many times... for example(s):
You accept the impossibility of two or more resurrections as if it were fait accompli... I have even posited that even a creature of unlimited power and finesse is not capable of reversing the damage done by three days rot, and the best minds of this forum were unable to propose a miraculous mechanism even given unlimited power and capability, (declining the gambit of "God can do anything").

You accept the impossibility of a violation of the conservation of matter and energy, that something can be created out of nothing.

Both of these premises are not logical, and it seems completely irrational from my perspective that anyone would accept them.

Viewed another way, it is both miraculous that they occurred (if indeed they did) and it is further miraculous that anyone this side of Antoine Lavoisier (1743-94), believes it.

It is not a 50/50 proposition, or opinion position. It is there are very good reasons to believe in the conservation of mass, and little to believe in a creator, it is (is it?) a miracle to believe in one?

[marco]

Genesis 2:16 - 3:24, it tells us not to judge by the poisoned knowledge of good or bad, and certainly not to act off of that same poisoned knowledge, and so to assess both the "good and the bad" that people have done in the name of the Bible is really absurd.

I struggle to understand this. It is fairly simple to judge good and evil; killing old women by throwing them in a river and if they aurvive they are witches, if not they are not witches, is evil. This evil was advocated in the Bible. Exodus 22: 18

What the Bible has truly done through the centuries is that the Bible declares what is wrong and it tells anyone who reads it what is right, and so it is a witness and a testimony against sinful humanity.

Yes, it threw down the Decalogue on bits of stone. As if! Fine. But it suggests that when God wants you to murder your son, you must murder your son. Parts of the Bible are wicked.

calculating the 1260 years from 610-661 CE, as the oldest known printing of the Qur'an.

As far as I know we have to wait until 1439 for Gutenberg to show us printing. The Koran, the outpourings of Muhammad, were reported long after the man's death. Illiterate Muhammad dictated them and presumably some clever scribe wrote down his blast of truth. The recent discovery of something that purports to be the Koran might predate Muhammad - such an odd circumstance. A miracle?

Miracles, the subject of the OP, were not too numerous in the old Arab's lifetime; he stole from caravans and killed to get gold.

[JP Cusick]

I struggle to understand this. It is fairly simple to judge good and evil;

Judging good and bad can not be done accurately, because it judges quality instead of judging right and wrong.

Judging good or bad (not accurate interpretation as "evil") is simple just like all sins are simple and easy to sin = to cheat, to lie, to adulterate, to hurt other people are so simple and easy that stopping them are difficult.

The real work comes from trying to be truthful and to be loyal, trustworthy, loving, helpful, etc etc etc.

killing old women by throwing them in a river and if they aurvive they are witches, if not they are not witches, is evil. This evil was advocated in the Bible. Exodus 22: 18

That verse tells the people not to let a witch live, but it does not say that all witches are female, and it does not give any direction for testing a person to see if they are a witch, and it does not tell to have any witch hunt or hunting.

The word "witch" is misused as a noun as if the person is a witch when the Bible declares a witch as the actions of a person.

It was not meant to be seen as the person (the noun) because the action is the witch.

See here = "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft" - 1 Samuel 15:23

So if any accused person were to stop (repent of) the action (stop their rebellion) then they stop being a witch, and so no one was to be executed unless they refused to stop their action.

As such we do not know of any person who was ever put to death in accordance to Exodus 22:18.

But it suggests that when God wants you to murder your son, you must murder your son. Parts of the Bible are wicked.

It is important to know that God sacrificed His own son for the cause of righteousness and of salvation.

And the Bible tells of God putting an end to human sacrifice, including God telling Abraham not to sacrifice Isaac, and it is hard even for God to stop ignorant humans from our blood lust.

Parts of the Bible does describe wickedness, and we need to learn both right and wrong from the scriptures.

As far as I know we have to wait until 1439 for Gutenberg to show us printing. The Koran, the outpourings of Muhammad, were reported long after the man's death. Illiterate Muhammad dictated them and presumably some clever scribe wrote down his blast of truth. The recent discovery of something that purports to be the Koran might predate Muhammad - such an odd circumstance. A miracle?

Link here = Live Science ~ 1,500-Year-Old Quran Manuscript Could Be Oldest Known Copy

The same with the Bible in that it was preserved from ancient parchments.

Miracles, the subject of the OP, were not too numerous in the old Arab's lifetime; he stole from caravans and killed to get gold.

You say such things out of your own malice and contempt and bigotry, but it is not true.

[marco]

Judging good and bad can not be done accurately ......
Judging good or bad (not accurate interpretation as "evil") is simple just like all sins are simple and easy to sin = to cheat, to lie, to adulterate, to hurt other people are so simple and easy that stopping them are difficult.

The real work comes from trying to be truthful and to be loyal, trustworthy, loving, helpful, etc etc etc.

You appear to be contradicting yourself: it can't be done, and then it is easy.
Real work may be in staying good but we're talking about judging, not sainthood.

The word "witch" is misused as a noun as if the person is a witch when the Bible declares a witch as the actions of a person.

The word witch is a noun. Your extrapolation has no merit.

So if any accused person were to stop (repent of) the action (stop their rebellion) then they stop being a witch, and so no one was to be executed unless they refused to stop their action.

You are writing your own script. The words: Suffer not a witch to live cannot possibly be given your meaning.

As such we do not know of any person who was ever put to death in accordance to Exodus 22:18.

The stupidity was in the instruction not in the actions of those who sought to comply. Your interpretation is fine - but it goes against what was said.

It is important to know that God sacrificed His own son for the cause of righteousness and of salvation.

Yes, this reduces God to silly status. Allah says he had no son and so didn't sacrifice him. How God could possess a son is a question we must ponder quietly. For God to commit filicide is the height of absurdity.

Miracles, the subject of the OP, were not too numerous in the old Arab's lifetime; he stole from caravans and killed to get gold.

You say such things out of your own malice and contempt and bigotry, but it is not true.

And you would know, from which source? He was a desert trader who raided caravans, according to the historical records we have. He fought in battles and killed adult captives, according to what we can gather from history. If we say we cannot gather these details, we must accept that perhaps Muhammad is a myth. My own view is he was a skilful trader-soldier, able to manipulate the simple brutes who followed him, offering booty and wild post-mortem promises. But he performed no miracles, as one would expect of a simple, illiterate Arab.

[JehovahsWitness]

God wants to save people, so he created a miracle making his chosen believe what the rest of us can't otherwise see as other than nonsense.

Yes I think what you say more or less sums up what the bible says

1 CORINTHIANS 1:25, 27
For God's nonsense is wiser than human wisdom, and God's weakness is stronger than human strength ... God chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 16 by JehovahsWitness]

Well sure, the difference is, and the point of the post is -
Why do you find it true, and I find it ridiculous?

Is it a miracle that you believe it? and why am I immune to the miracle, if so?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 16 by JehovahsWitness]

... the point of the post is - Why do you find it true, and I find it ridiculous?

As I said, I believe you yourself have already hit the nail on the head.

God ... he created a miracle making his chosen believe what the rest of us can't otherwise see as other than nonsense.

One person will believe because they one of the chosen and all the chosen to be subject to the "miracle" of belief. The others (lets call them "the rejects") will not be and will not see what the "chosen" see. You proposed this, I can only agree with what you said.


Is it a miracle that you believe it?

Yes, I think so. Not a big spectacular "parting of the Red Sea" miracle, but a miracle (something with a supernatural origin) nonetheless. Of course I would never claim to possess special knowledge on this forum, but I think it is within forum guidelines to point out the fact that the bible does contain scriptures that indicate that true understanding of divine utterances is like a "sacred secret" revealed (through holy spirit ie "miraculously") to those God chooses but not to to "the rejects".

why am I immune to the miracle, if so?

I'm not God so I couldn't say. I do believe God chooses who He chooses and rejects those who He rejects. I don't know you so I don't know which group you are in or why. I will say that I believe understanding isn't a right, it is in my opinion a privilege and if the bible be true, a privilege that is directly linked to the "miracle" of the divine will. Being "immune" to the miracle of faith may well be a sympton that that person (not YOU or anyone on this forum, just someone in general) may well have been rejected by God and judged unworthy of receiving it.



JW

[bjs]

[Replying to post 14 by JP Cusick]


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[Willum]

[Replying to post 18 by JehovahsWitness]

You're not hearing what I am saying.
Why does God require his followers to believe the unlikely, even the preposterous or even, quite possibly the impossible?

So, if he requires you to believe the impossible, he is requiring you to believe lies, right?
If the preposterous or unlikely, this still does not send a good message about the quality of people he desires.

It is making me wonder, as long as deception on the part of God is being suggested, if the whole thing is a exercise in reverse intent.

Perhaps he wishes to tempt the gullible with Heaven and what not, false foil righteousness, when the very few,those who doubt will be going to heaven.

How would we know?

Maybe... Naaah!