Bible verses Pope. Who is wrong?

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polonius
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Bible verses Pope. Who is wrong?

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Post by polonius »

Is the Bible or the Pope in error here?

Romans 3:23 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
" since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

OR

Ineffabilis Deus
Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius IX on the Immaculate Conception (December 8, 1854)
“Therefore, far above all the angels and all the saints so wondrously did God endow her with the abundance of all heavenly gifts poured from the treasury of his divinity that this mother, ever absolutely free of all stain of sin, all fair and perfect, would possess that fullness of holy innocence and sanctity than which, under God, one cannot even imagine anything greater, and which, outside of God, no mind can succeed in comprehending fully.�

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Re: Bible verses Pope. Who is wrong?

Post #101

Post by Claire Evans »

marco wrote:
Claire Evans wrote:


So you are saying Mary existed before God to create Him? Make no mistake, Jesus was a separate entity from God on earth but in heaven is one and the same as the Holy Spirit. Mary was an earthly being.
I can make no sense of this. Jesus was conceived mystically; Mary was his mother. She deserves some honour for this alone. She is not a goddess; she is not worshipped; she is shown great respect. Objection?
This is worship:

Image

Are the following quotes indicative of Mary worship?

In 1854, Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception - that Mary, as the Mother of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, was free of original sin at the moment of her conception. The feast of the Immaculate Conception is celebrated on December 8. The birthday of Mary is an old feast in the Church, celebrated on September 8, since the seventh century.

Pope Benedict XV wrote in 1918: "To such an extent did Mary suffer and almost die with her suffering and dying Son; to such extent did she surrender her maternal rights over her Son for man's salvation, and immolated him - insofar as she could in order to appease the justice of God, that we might rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ." Mary is entitled to the title of Queen because, as Pope Pius XII expressed it in a 1946 radio speech, "Jesus is King throughout all eternity by nature and by right of conquest: through him, with him, and subordinate to him, Mary is Queen by grace, by divine relationship, by right of conquest, and by singular election."


http://www.threestjohns.com/index.php/n ... sed-virgin
Claire Evans wrote:

Forgiving by a person means letting go of a grudge. It doesn't mean people can wipe others clean from sin. Only the Son can do that: Therefore a priest does not have the authority to forgive another for they have not been wronged.
marco wrote:Then you must take this up with John, who disagrees with you. John 20:23 says:


"Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." That seems clear enough.
It really means this:

Only God can forgive sins, and Christ, being God, has the power to do so as well, but He never communicated any such power to His disciples, nor did they ever assume any such power to themselves. The key to understanding the meaning of John 20:23 lies in the previous two verses: “Again Jesus said, ‘Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.’ And with that he breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit.’� He sent them, as He is sending us, to bring the good news of the way to salvation and heaven to the whole world. Jesus was leaving the earth physically but promised God would be with them in the person of the Holy Spirit living in them. As they proclaimed the gospel, they could honestly tell people who believed in that message that their sins were forgiven, and they could honestly tell people that did not believe in the message that their sins were not forgiven and that they stand condemned in God’s eyes. Jesus said, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him� (John 3:36).

https://www.gotquestions.org/John-20-23.html

Like Jesus doesn't hold grudges when we are truly sorry, so must we not hold grudges against someone who is truly repented.

There is no indication that we can forgive others so that their sins are wiped clean:

Acts 10

43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.�

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Re: Bible verses Pope. Who is wrong?

Post #102

Post by Claire Evans »

Jack wrote: [Replying to Claire Evans]

Hi Claire

John 20, 21-23 Jesus said to them again, peace be with you. As the Father sent me so I send you. And when He said this He breathed on them, and said to them, receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any they are forgiven, if you retain the sins of any they are retained.

Jesus being raised from the dead he was commissioning the Apostles to continue his work before he went back to the Father. Jesus was sent to be the one true mediator between God and man, to infallibility proclaim the gospel, to reign supreme as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and especially to redeem the world through the forgiveness of sins.

In John 20, 21-23 Jesus is giving us the sacrament of confession one of 7sacraments and gives his apostles and their successors charge of it.
Hi.
There is no indication that sin can be forgiven through anyone else.

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Re: Bible verses Pope. Who is wrong?

Post #103

Post by marco »

Claire Evans wrote:
This is worship
The Church proclaims that Mary is NOT worshipped; that it would be idolatrous to worship her, or angels or saints. You display a picture of people honouring the Mother of Jesus and you wrongly regard this as a ceremony of worship. There might be something in what you say had the Church not specifically and emphatically noted in the catechism that it is forbidden to worship Mary.

Muslims are in a similar situation with Muhammad. Some will kill for him, but only Allah is worshipped.

"Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." That seems clear enough.
Claire Evans wrote:
It really means this:

Only God can forgive sins, and Christ, being God, has the power to do so as well, but He never communicated any such power to His disciples, nor did they ever assume any such power to themselves.
You mean it means something else, in your view. What you have written is not a translation of the words but some reflections on your personal viewpoint of various things roughly associated with the passage. You have not said what the passage means, only what you would like it to mean, had other words been used. Perhaps you feel that the words of the passage should be changed to accommodate your view. Others, it seems, prefer to take the words as they are.

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Re: Bible verses Pope. Who is wrong?

Post #104

Post by Claire Evans »

marco wrote:
Claire Evans wrote:
This is worship
The Church proclaims that Mary is NOT worshipped; that it would be idolatrous to worship her, or angels or saints. You display a picture of people honouring the Mother of Jesus and you wrongly regard this as a ceremony of worship. There might be something in what you say had the Church not specifically and emphatically noted in the catechism that it is forbidden to worship Mary.



You disregarded this:




In 1854, Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception - that Mary, as the Mother of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, was free of original sin at the moment of her conception. The feast of the Immaculate Conception is celebrated on December 8. The birthday of Mary is an old feast in the Church, celebrated on September 8, since the seventh century.

Pope Benedict XV wrote in 1918: "To such an extent did Mary suffer and almost die with her suffering and dying Son; to such extent did she surrender her maternal rights over her Son for man's salvation, and immolated him - insofar as she could in order to appease the justice of God, that we might rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ." Mary is entitled to the title of Queen because, as Pope Pius XII expressed it in a 1946 radio speech, "Jesus is King throughout all eternity by nature and by right of conquest: through him, with him, and subordinate to him, Mary is Queen by grace, by divine relationship, by right of conquest, and by singular election."

Does not a Queen get worshiped? How biblical is that? You do not make idols and worship it. Idols are fake gods.
marco wrote:Muslims are in a similar situation with Muhammad. Some will kill for him, but only Allah is worshipped.

Yes, but do they put Mohammed on par with Allah like the Catholics see Mary as par with Jesus?

"Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." That seems clear enough.
Claire Evans wrote:
It really means this:

Only God can forgive sins, and Christ, being God, has the power to do so as well, but He never communicated any such power to His disciples, nor did they ever assume any such power to themselves.
marco wrote:You mean it means something else, in your view. What you have written is not a translation of the words but some reflections on your personal viewpoint of various things roughly associated with the passage. You have not said what the passage means, only what you would like it to mean, had other words been used. Perhaps you feel that the words of the passage should be changed to accommodate your view. Others, it seems, prefer to take the words as they are.
Perhaps your interpretation is to accommodate your views. NO ONE has the power to forgive sins by redeeming them of sin. Only Jesus can do that. No one else died for us. When Jesus forgives sin, it is our duty to forgive them by not holding a grudge. We are to move forward.

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Re: Bible verses Pope. Who is wrong?

Post #105

Post by marco »

Claire Evans wrote:

Does not a Queen get worshiped? How biblical is that? You do not make idols and worship it. Idols are fake gods.


Nobody gives a queen divine worship. We can call a magistrate "your worship." The word worship, applied to humans, just means respect, admiration, even love. We are discussing worship or latria. When someone becomes a beauty queen she is perhaps admired; she is not offered divine worship.
Claire Evans wrote:
Yes, but do they put Mohammed on par with Allah like the Catholics see Mary as par with Jesus?
They don't regard either Muhammad or Jesus as God. If some Muslims treat Muhammad as a god, they are wrong. If some Catholics treat Mary as God, they are wrong. There is but a limited number of ways in which I can say that Mary is NOT seen as a god. She is given honour, hyperdulia, and not worship, latria. Catholics are instructed that to worship Mary as God would be blasphemy.

Claire Evans wrote:

Perhaps your interpretation is to accommodate your views. NO ONE has the power to forgive sins by redeeming them of sin. Only Jesus can do that. No one else died for us. When Jesus forgives sin, it is our duty to forgive them by not holding a grudge. We are to move forward.
I am simply expressing what I know to be Church teaching which you misinterpret. The priest is the human receptacle for hearing someone confess; the forgiveness is issued from heaven through the priest's pronouncement of absolution. Jesus did say that his disciples were to do things "in his name." That is what is happening.

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